The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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Compassionist
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The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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Post by Compassionist »

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #121

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:02 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:59 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:46 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:13 pm
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. ... thought of all the things that I want to do but can't ...
If your WILL is your DESIRE or wish; then you have free will. One can desire to travel back in time and be born a purple flying girraffe ; ones ability to fulfill those desires is limited, but the two should not be confused. If you are working under the premise that free will is one's desires/wishes, then all intelligent beings have free will.
I agree that's a valid interpretation of the term. I use it to mean having a decision or choice -making mechanism.
Yes thats the definition I tend to work under too and again, all intelligent beings have the mechanism (the needed tools/the capacity) To make decisions thus all intelligent beings have free will.



JW
More than that, higher animals also appear to have choice making mechanisms, though these do seem to be more directed by instinct than reason. Humans do have greater powers of reasoning. But that does not give us greater free will (choice) than animals, or some animals at least.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #122

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:11 am

More than that, higher animals also appear to have choice making mechanisms, though these do seem to be more directed by instinct than reason.
Correct; Instictual "choices"are not really choices at all but rather preporgammed actions they have no power to go against. Humans as higher lifeforms are not limited by their natural instincts and make moral decisions that animals simply lack the mechanism to make.



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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #123

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The way I see it is that instinctive reaction is a biological mechanism as a slug pulls in its' eyes if they hit something or a flower turns towards the sun. It's an evolved genetic survival mechanism. As the animal gets 'higher' the more the mechanism resembles a choice. You can even train it to react differently. This is the same educated instinct we use in training people to have automatic reaction without thinking. We also have reasoning powers so we can think about these things and apply reason to choises. I wouldn't like to claim that there were not deterministic reasons at the bottom of the choices we make. Let the philosophers dicker about whether that's Free Will or not; it is what it is and affords us a choice making mechanism and that's free enough will for me.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #124

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:16 am Humans as higher lifeforms are not limited by their natural instincts and make moral decisions that animals simply lack the mechanism to make.

JW
Given that humans are animals it can't be stated (at least not logically) that all animals lack the mechanism to make moral decisions. If humans do indeed possess this mechanism, then it is true that at least some animals possess this mechanism because humans are animals.


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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #125

Post by Eloi »

Humans are not animals. O:) Some humans act like animals sometimes. 8-) Some want to treat others like animals and convince them that is what they are. :x

Humans are very far from animals in intellectual abilities. We have intelligence; we consider existence and life; we appreciate abstract things like beuty and love. We meditate on things, we study them carefully, we draw conclusions and then use them to create things and solve more complex situations.

We enjoy the views of the landscapes, the colors of nature, the taste of the fruits, the pleasant sound of the birds, the shows of butterflies and flowers and birds and fishes. All of that was created for us to enjoy... Animals don't enjoy it like we do. They are skills that no one needs to survive; God gave them to us so that we would be happy in the house that he made for us.

We are God's supreme creation on earth, and the ones He gave the planet to take care of... not the animals. We do not interbreed genetically with animals.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #126

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:59 pm
Given that humans are animals it can't be stated (at least not logically) that all animals lack the mechanism to make moral decisions.


Tcg


If that was a given, your conclusion would be true, circular but true. Not everyone however accepts your premise; it is certainly not the biblical view.
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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #127

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:01 am
Tcg wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:59 pm
Given that humans are animals it can't be stated (at least not logically) that all animals lack the mechanism to make moral decisions.


Tcg


If that was a given, your conclusion would be true, circular but true. Not everyone however accepts your premise; it is certainly not the biblical view.
Scientifically speaking and on the basisof scientific evidence, the views of the Bible are immaterial.
Eloi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:34 pm Humans are not animals. O:) Some humans act like animals sometimes. 8-) Some want to treat others like animals and convince them that is what they are. :x

Humans are very far from animals in intellectual abilities. We have intelligence; we consider existence and life; we appreciate abstract things like beuty and love. We meditate on things, we study them carefully, we draw conclusions and then use them to create things and solve more complex situations.

We enjoy the views of the landscapes, the colors of nature, the taste of the fruits, the pleasant sound of the birds, the shows of butterflies and flowers and birds and fishes. All of that was created for us to enjoy... Animals don't enjoy it like we do. They are skills that no one needs to survive; God gave them to us so that we would be happy in the house that he made for us.

We are God's supreme creation on earth, and the ones He gave the planet to take care of... not the animals. We do not interbreed genetically with animals.
Human are animals. We behave physically and instinctively like animals. We are genetically and biochemically animals. We are morphologically and and anatomically animals. That our problem solving is of an extraordinary order no more has made us non animals than the ability of birds to fly or chameleons to change colour makes them non -animals.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #128

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:27 am
Scientifically speaking and on the basis of scientific evidence, the views of the Bible are immaterial.

I do believe we are in a Christianity and Apologetics forum under a thread where the OP asking about the biblical God so the point is far from "immaterial". I believe there is a Science forum where threads examining the scientific consensus might blend right in. Here you are not preaching to the choir.



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #129

Post by Eloi »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:27 am (...)
Eloi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:34 pm Humans are not animals. O:) Some humans act like animals sometimes. 8-) Some want to treat others like animals and convince them that is what they are. :x

Humans are very far from animals in intellectual abilities. We have intelligence; we consider existence and life; we appreciate abstract things like beuty and love. We meditate on things, we study them carefully, we draw conclusions and then use them to create things and solve more complex situations.

We enjoy the views of the landscapes, the colors of nature, the taste of the fruits, the pleasant sound of the birds, the shows of butterflies and flowers and birds and fishes. All of that was created for us to enjoy... Animals don't enjoy it like we do. They are skills that no one needs to survive; God gave them to us so that we would be happy in the house that he made for us.

We are God's supreme creation on earth, and the ones He gave the planet to take care of... not the animals. We do not interbreed genetically with animals.
Human are animals. We behave physically and instinctively like animals. We are genetically and biochemically animals. We are morphologically and and anatomically animals. That our problem solving is of an extraordinary order no more has made us non animals than the ability of birds to fly or chameleons to change colour makes them non -animals.
I remember that a few years ago a very hot topic of debate was whether or not atheists could act morally or ethically. Atheists tried to defend the idea that morals/ethics were important even if someone was an atheist.

Now the matter has taken an important turn: they no longer care to defend the ethical or moral values ​​of atheists. Now what they want is to make people believe that humans are animals and that they do not have to follow any moral or ethical principle. Although they do not say it in those words, it is obvious that this is what they are implying. Perhaps it is the way to justify why they have brought humanity to the point where it is now or why they do not have any rules in their personal lives that limit them from doing what they deem necessary to satisfy their own desires and needs.

But the Creator of everything is not going to allow unscrupulous people to continue ruining humanity and the planet. He is going to clean soon this house that he gave to humans; he is going to take control away from those who have it for managing so badly what he put in their care, and he is going to put it in the hands of people who love justice and truth.

Jesus Christ said that the world would be like in the days of Noah, and I say: giving the Creator the same reasons to destroy a human generation that all the time is thinking of doing some harm and acting aggressively and violently harming the planet and other persons. The Bible says that in the days of Noah it was also like that. Today there is a new version: the idea that people are animals. If the Creator of the planet and humans does not put an end to this, these kind of persons who are trying to corrupt humanity with such thoughts would lead the planet and humanity to their own extinction.

Gen. 6:5 Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.
6 Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #130

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 6:59 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:27 am
Scientifically speaking and on the basis of scientific evidence, the views of the Bible are immaterial.

I do believe we are in a Christianity and Apologetics forum under a thread where the OP asking about the biblical God so the point is far from "immaterial". I believe there is a Science forum where threads examining the scientific consensus might blend right in. Here you are not preaching to the choir.



JW
:D Good one. Of course the views of the Bible (Christianity) are basic to the debate. My point was that (compared to the verified evidence of science) the Bible's say - so is immaterial to whether they are true or not, other than making the claim. Did you not understand that or were you just looking for any cheap nitpick of a point to make?

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