The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[JehovahsWitness]

If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I dont think you are alone in your view but in my experience those that share it are mostly atheists and infidels.

The faithful recognise that God is wholely good and righteous and so if our interpretation of the expression "hardening someones heart" results in God acting unjustly our understanding of the expression needs to be adjusted.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS


In what sense did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?
viewtopic.php?p=838159#p838159

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ... RESPONSIBILITY

[TRANSPONDER]

If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I dont think you are alone in your view but in my experience those that share it are mostly atheists and infidels.

The faithful recognise that God is wholely good and righteous and so if our interpretation of the expression "hardening someones heart" results in God acting unjustly our understanding of the expression needs to be adjusted.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS


In what sense did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?
viewtopic.php?p=838159#p838159

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ... RESPONSIBILITY

it is always diverting, and confirms we doubting infidels in our rejection of Bible, Abrahamic religions and the trustworthiness of Christian apologetics, to see an apologist (or his mentors) rewriting the Bible to make it say what they would prefer it to say. I shall check the Hebrew, but if the translations say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, that is what it probably means, not that God revealed that Pharaoh had hardened his own heart.

Up to 9. 12 Pharoah had hardened his own heart once the plague had stopped. After that, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and we might assume that he had hardened it himself, But 9.12 says that God did this to Pharaoh and thus we have to ask whether the first two hardenings were God's work, as well.

Look also at 9. 34 to 10.1 which makes it clear that Pharaoh's hardening of heart was actually God doing it to show his Signs and to make sport amongst the Egyptians and show Himself off. And thereafter it is impossible to tell Pharaoh's hardening of heart from God doing it to show his power and signs.

Read it yourself and come back and honestly say whether you can claim that it was not God doing it to Pharaoh and that saying it is 'God revealing what Pharaoh was doing himself' is not just reading from the 'Ghost Bible' - the one that says what Believers want it say, not what it actually does say. About slavery, about the kids slain by a bear, about Adam dying, about everything inconvenient.

[JehovahsWitness]

...rewriting the Bible to make it say what they would prefer it to say. I shall check the Hebrew, but if the translations say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, that is what it probably means...

It is not a case of "rewriting" anything; the expression is obviously a metaphor for something since the heart is a muscle that has to be flexible to work; taken literally a hard heart would lead to a massive heart attack and immediate death.

The thing about metaphor is it is not always apparent what is meant and this more so when one crosses culture and language. Unless one is the Pope or has mind-reading powers, one should first ask the question: What does this expression mean? And since literature is not math, be ready for someone to disagree with your conclusion.

[JoeyKnothead]

It is not a case of "rewriting" anything; the expression is obviously a metaphor for something since the heart is a muscle that has to be flexible to work; taken literally a hard heart would lead to a massive heart attack and immediate death.

The thing about metaphor is it is not always apparent what is meant and this more so when one crosses culture and language. Unless one is the Pope or has mind-reading powers, one should first ask the question: What does this expression mean? And since literature is not math, be ready for someone to disagree with your conclusion.

This indicates to me the problem with having to figure out 'God's word', or 'Truth(tm)', and how that message may be corrupted to suit anyone's aims.

Ya'd think an omniscient god woulda known that.

[JehovahsWitness]

This indicates to me the problem with having to figure out 'God's word', or 'Truth(tm)', and how that message may be corrupted to suit anyone's aims.

It's not a problem except for those that conclude "harden someones heart" MUST be a metaphor for remove free will and make someone do something they do not wish to do....and that is the and of the discussion, no dissenting voices allowed!

JW

[TRANSPONDER]

...rewriting the Bible to make it say what they would prefer it to say. I shall check the Hebrew, but if the translations say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, that is what it probably means...

It is not a case of "rewriting" anything; the expression is obviously a metaphor for something since the heart is a muscle that has to be flexible to work; taken literally a hard heart would lead to a massive heart attack and immediate death.

The thing about metaphor is it is not always apparent what is meant and this more so when one crosses culture and language. Unless one is the Pope or has mind-reading powers, one should first ask the question: What does this expression mean? And since literature is not math, be ready for someone to disagree with your conclusion.

Of course we mean by 'heart' our minds. That is a red herring when we are discussing whether the Bible says that God influenced Pharaoh's mind to make him refuse to release the israelites when he was actually inclined to.

The Bible says clearly that God did this and it does not say that God 'revealed' what Pharaoh really intended. That is rewriting the Bible to say what you want it to say.

[TRANSPONDER]

This indicates to me the problem with having to figure out 'God's word', or 'Truth(tm)', and how that message may be corrupted to suit anyone's aims.

It's not a problem except for those that conclude "harden someones heart" MUST be a metaphor for remove free will and make someone do something they do not wish to do....and that is the and of the discussion, no dissenting voices allowed!

JW

Hardening someone's heart is, taking the context of what God told Moses he was doing. most certainly a metaphor for overriding Pharaoh's Free Will in that the king had decided it was best to let the Hebrews go to avoid more trouble. Moreover, in the context, it looks like 'Pharaoh's hears was hardened' also looks like it was God doing it.

The problem is with believers who don't like what the Bible says and want to argue that it really says (or means) something else.

[JoeyKnothead]

This indicates to me the problem with having to figure out 'God's word', or 'Truth(tm)', and how that message may be corrupted to suit anyone's aims.

It's not a problem except for those that conclude "harden someones heart" MUST be a metaphor for remove free will and make someone do something they do not wish to do....and that is the and of the discussion, no dissenting voices allowed!

JW

It's got a good beat, I can dance to it. I give it a 95.

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations, any bunch or all of which might apply. You sure ain't wrong on that.

It still leaves us with my prior comments.

[1213]

....Pharaoh capitulated and God made him change his mind...

Why do you think so? And how do you think God did it? How would you support your claims with the Bible?

[1213]

...One can't be all-knowing and all-powerful without being guilty of everything that is wrong with all that exists. ...

Sorry, I disagree with that.