The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Compassionist
Guru
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 135 times

The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

Compassionist
Guru
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #111

Post by Compassionist »

William wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:25 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:44 pm
William wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:48 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #99]
I am omnibenevolent but I am not omniscient and I am not omnipotent. So, I can't do all the omnibenevolent things I want to do e.g. make all living things forever happy.
Omnibenevolent-possessing perfect or unlimited goodness.

You don't give the impression that you yourself are even happy...
Omnibenevolent means being benevolent towards all. I am benevolent towards all. That's why I want to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths and make all living things forever happy. I didn't say I was happy. How can I be happy in a world full of suffering, injustice and deaths?
How can one be Omnibenevolent and unhappy at the same time?

Also - I think I asked you why you believed that being omniscient and omnipotent meant that one therefore has unrestricted free-will...have you answered that question?
I am omnibenevolent and unhappy at the same time because I lack omniscience and omnipotence which makes my omnibenevolence futile.

I think being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will. Since I am not omniscient and omnipotent, I can't know that for sure.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #112

Post by William »

[Replying to Compassionist in post #111]
I think being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will. Since I am not omniscient and omnipotent, I can't know that for sure.
What process did you use in order to come to the declaration that being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will/amount to one having free will?

Compassionist
Guru
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #113

Post by Compassionist »

William wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:55 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #111]
I think being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will. Since I am not omniscient and omnipotent, I can't know that for sure.
What process did you use in order to come to the declaration that being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will/amount to one having free will?
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Omniscience and omnipotence allow one a will that is free from all constraints and a will that is not determined by any variables. I have never met an entity that was all-knowing and all-powerful. So, the existence of such an entity is hypothetical.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

I thought of all the things that I want to do but can't do because I have a constrained will e.g. going back in time and preventing all the suffering, injustice and deaths and making all living things forever happy. I realize that if I were all-knowing and all-powerful, I would be free from all constraints and my will won't be determined by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #114

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:13 pm
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. ... thought of all the things that I want to do but can't ...
If your WILL is your DESIRE or wish; then you have free will. One can desire to travel back in time and be born a purple flying girraffe ; ones ability to fulfill those desires is limited, but the two should not be confused. If you are working under the premise that free will is one's desires/wishes, then all intelligent beings have free will.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #115

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:13 pm
William wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:55 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #111]
I think being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will. Since I am not omniscient and omnipotent, I can't know that for sure.
What process did you use in order to come to the declaration that being omniscient and omnipotent would give one free will/amount to one having free will?
I realize that if I were all-knowing and all-powerful, I would be free from all constraints and my will won't be determined by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.
Let us examine this idea together then.

I see immediately that if I were all-knowing. I would be constrained by my omniscience.

Thus I would have no free will in relation to being all knowing.

Yet - being also all-powerful, I would be able to break free from the constraints of being all-knowing.

Would you agree with this assessment, so far?

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #116

Post by 1213 »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:25 am
1213 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:49 am
brunumb wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:08 am ....Two humans allegedly committed the most heinous crime of disobedience that involved no harm to anyone, and as a consequence God rejected them ...
I don't think that is true, God gave them what they wanted, should be happy.
You have to prove the Bible to be true before citing Biblical accounts as truths. No one has yet proven the Bible to be true.
Ok, so then we can also skip your accusations against God as not proven truths?

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #117

Post by 1213 »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 pm ...Tardigrades can live without oxygen, water and food. I and you don't have all the genes tardigrades do. That's why I and you can't do what tardigrades do. This proves that genes play key roles in determining our choices. If you want to prove me wrong, please do what the tardigrades do even though you don't have their genes.
Ok, I can agree that I can't do everything. I think it is a different matter than having free will, because I could still want to be able to do things that I can't. And I can choose freely every action I make.
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 pmWhat good is a wish or desire if you can't make the wish or desire real? I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't make it happen. I became a vegan because I felt sad for all the suffering and deaths caused by non-vegans. I can't even make all the non-vegans vegan. I feel so frustrated that I have a constrained will instead of having a free will which would grant me the power to do what I want to do.
Basically you would then go against the free will of others and be a tyrant.

Compassionist
Guru
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #118

Post by Compassionist »

1213 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:43 am
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 pm ...Tardigrades can live without oxygen, water and food. I and you don't have all the genes tardigrades do. That's why I and you can't do what tardigrades do. This proves that genes play key roles in determining our choices. If you want to prove me wrong, please do what the tardigrades do even though you don't have their genes.
Ok, I can agree that I can't do everything. I think it is a different matter than having free will, because I could still want to be able to do things that I can't. And I can choose freely every action I make.
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 pmWhat good is a wish or desire if you can't make the wish or desire real? I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't make it happen. I became a vegan because I felt sad for all the suffering and deaths caused by non-vegans. I can't even make all the non-vegans vegan. I feel so frustrated that I have a constrained will instead of having a free will which would grant me the power to do what I want to do.
Basically you would then go against the free will of others and be a tyrant.
I keep telling you that freedom does not exist in a deterministic reality. The choices of biological organisms are determined by genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I can't go against anyone's free will because no one has free will. I have nothing more to add to this discussion. So, this is my last post in this thread. I wish all living things infinite and eternal happiness.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7956
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 931 times
Been thanked: 3484 times

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #119

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:46 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:13 pm
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. ... thought of all the things that I want to do but can't ...
If your WILL is your DESIRE or wish; then you have free will. One can desire to travel back in time and be born a purple flying girraffe ; ones ability to fulfill those desires is limited, but the two should not be confused. If you are working under the premise that free will is one's desires/wishes, then all intelligent beings have free will.
I agree that's a valid interpretation of the term. I use it to mean having a decision or choice -making mechanism. Others use it mean being able to do absolutely everything. They are all valid definitions and it's the old problem - using the same word to mean different things and insisting that's what the other person should mean, too.

The Rule I propose and suggest is: explain what one means by the term they use and thus confusion is avoided, not to say cutting across others' valid opinions by forcing One view on everyone simply by attaching a particular definition to a word. In fact this is the gold old and well -over-used equivocation - fallacy.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #120

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:59 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:46 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:13 pm
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. ... thought of all the things that I want to do but can't ...
If your WILL is your DESIRE or wish; then you have free will. One can desire to travel back in time and be born a purple flying girraffe ; ones ability to fulfill those desires is limited, but the two should not be confused. If you are working under the premise that free will is one's desires/wishes, then all intelligent beings have free will.
I agree that's a valid interpretation of the term. I use it to mean having a decision or choice -making mechanism.
Yes thats the definition I tend to work under too and again, all intelligent beings have the mechanism (the needed tools/the capacity) To make decisions thus all intelligent beings have free will.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply