A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

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A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #1

Post by POI »

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1)
Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12


3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.


*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Last edited by POI on Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #401

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a n o- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #402

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:08 am I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a n o- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Maybe this should be the reference answer?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #403

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:10 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:08 am I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a n o- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Maybe this should be the reference answer?
It is certainly open for anyone to use without being slammed by a copyright claim for royalties.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #404

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:30 pm
POI wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:10 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:08 am I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a n o- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Maybe this should be the reference answer?
It is certainly open for anyone to use without being slammed by a copyright claim for royalties.
The OP question(s) have been answered.... Thanks. Please read the (updated) OP :)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #405

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:41 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:30 pm
POI wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:10 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:08 am I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a n o- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Maybe this should be the reference answer?
It is certainly open for anyone to use without being slammed by a copyright claim for royalties.
The OP question(s) have been answered.... Thanks. Please read the (updated) OP :)
Cool. Where do I send the cheque?

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #406

Post by Purple Knight »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:03 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 pm And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews.
But if people still suffer, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the only thing it does to make a distinction is to invalidate the suffering of the people suffering in the way that does not happen to be called slavery.

If someone is able to use the act that is called tax fraud to force people to toil for his benefit and enrich himself but never them, I will say it ought to make no difference what it is called.
You may say what you like, but slavery (chattel slavery) is not about tax fraud or people suffering (e.g in famine, flood or war, none of which is slavery) or about exploitation of a workforce (IF they are not owned as property, potentially for life and not permitted to move to other jobs,- in which case, if they were, they would be chattel slaves). I see see no purpose in trying to blur or confuse these understanding of what slavery is or is not other than as part of some effort to pretend that what is slavery in the Bible isn't slavery at all, in order to excuse God for not denouncing it.
I admit Bible slavery is slavery. But we're talking about what is moral and justified, not what something is properly classified as.

That's about whether people suffer and how much.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #407

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:51 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:03 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 pm And within crime, we distinguish armed robbery from child abuse. We just do. So we don't confuse slavery with tax fraud. We know what slavery is and what it isn't. Slavery in the Bible is real slavery, even if some conditions are made for Hebrews.
But if people still suffer, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the only thing it does to make a distinction is to invalidate the suffering of the people suffering in the way that does not happen to be called slavery.

If someone is able to use the act that is called tax fraud to force people to toil for his benefit and enrich himself but never them, I will say it ought to make no difference what it is called.
You may say what you like, but slavery (chattel slavery) is not about tax fraud or people suffering (e.g in famine, flood or war, none of which is slavery) or about exploitation of a workforce (IF they are not owned as property, potentially for life and not permitted to move to other jobs,- in which case, if they were, they would be chattel slaves). I see see no purpose in trying to blur or confuse these understanding of what slavery is or is not other than as part of some effort to pretend that what is slavery in the Bible isn't slavery at all, in order to excuse God for not denouncing it.
I admit Bible slavery is slavery. But we're talking about what is moral and justified, not what something is properly classified as.

That's about whether people suffer and how much.
I agree so far as it goes. The classification was occasioned more become some people were trying to make out that Biblical slavery wasn't slavery (or even that slavery was no worse than just living in society) so (I suppose) God wasn't obliged to denounce it.

And that's the real point - that it is wrong and we consider it wrong and either God (if the Bible - god is real) would know it and by all reason should have said something other than 'Give your Hebrew slave a wife and you may get to keep him for life 8-) ' or God simply operates on a different morality than the one he supposedly gave us. Neither of which does much to persuade me to invest much trust in the Bible or in any of the religions it spawned.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #408

Post by Purple Knight »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 am I agree so far as it goes. The classification was occasioned more become some people were trying to make out that Biblical slavery wasn't slavery (or even that slavery was no worse than just living in society) so (I suppose) God wasn't obliged to denounce it.
And I disagree with the ones doing that. They're trying to keep their definitionalism - the same definitionalism that says slavery is wrong no matter what it is or isn't, making it about what the act is called rather than how much people suffer or what's done to them - rather than address the actual issue and perhaps boldly say that just maybe, not all slavery is inherently wrong and American slavery gave us that idea because it was such an atrocity.

It's easier to use definitionalism than to actually defend claims. I'm doing the latter and I know what I'm going to get from most people: OMG you said slavery isn't wrong you must hate black people! And that's the strong position in the modern world.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 amAnd that's the real point - that it is wrong and we consider it wrong and either God (if the Bible - god is real) would know it and by all reason should have said something other than 'Give your Hebrew slave a wife and you may get to keep him for life 8-) ' or God simply operates on a different morality than the one he supposedly gave us.
It's the latter. And he extends some of that moral privilege to his Chosen People. Nobody ever said Canaanites (IMO whites, this is the best fit) could own slaves, so in that way it's consistent. But that's exactly why God, whether he exists or not, is useless to anyone else trying to attain morality.

However even for Jews (and you can convert, so still possibly everyone)...

If morality is just what God says, then as long as he keeps saying what he says now you can be moral by keeping it. But God does deceive. He deceived Abraham into thinking Isaac needed to be sacrificed. The uselessness is in the pudding. If it's just what God says then he may say something else tomorrow and not even tell you, and some people may not think he would ever do that, but that doesn't satisfy me to rest the obtainment of morality on someone who is every bit entitled to change their mind just deciding not to change their mind. I need something more solid.

And actually I don't think Christians are happy with this either. I think many of them are self-deceived. I don't think very many at all would obey God if he came down from the clouds and said sacrifice your kid it's okay it's moral because I said so. Remember, this is what you have to be willing to accept to worship this God. I don't think they would. I think they'd stop being Christians. I think they're using someone else's God as a placeholder for their own internal morality which I guess is fine - however you obtain morality I would say plus to you.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 amNeither of which does much to persuade me to invest much trust in the Bible or in any of the religions it spawned.
No, I don't see why you would.

I just happen to be on their side with the slavery thing because 1) we don't know it was anywhere near as bad as American slavery and 2) I don't see a moral inconsistency. I don't see that something is called something and immediately decide it must be bad. If they actually kept to the no permanent damage thing I see it as an upgrade to walmart's working conditions, which leave people crippled. Just go in there and look a how many of the middle and older aged workers are wearing braces on their backs and legs and arms and you'll see permanent damage. Now, I don't know that the ancient Hebrews kept to the no permanent damage on beatings, but I also don't know that they didn't, so this is not a yes it was better but more of a no it was not automatically worse, just because they had something that was called slavery and we don't.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #409

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:43 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 am I agree so far as it goes. The classification was occasioned more become some people were trying to make out that Biblical slavery wasn't slavery (or even that slavery was no worse than just living in society) so (I suppose) God wasn't obliged to denounce it.
And I disagree with the ones doing that. They're trying to keep their definitionalism - the same definitionalism that says slavery is wrong no matter what it is or isn't, making it about what the act is called rather than how much people suffer or what's done to them - rather than address the actual issue and perhaps boldly say that just maybe, not all slavery is inherently wrong and American slavery gave us that idea because it was such an atrocity.

It's easier to use definitionalism than to actually defend claims. I'm doing the latter and I know what I'm going to get from most people: OMG you said slavery isn't wrong you must hate black people! And that's the strong position in the modern world.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 amAnd that's the real point - that it is wrong and we consider it wrong and either God (if the Bible - god is real) would know it and by all reason should have said something other than 'Give your Hebrew slave a wife and you may get to keep him for life 8-) ' or God simply operates on a different morality than the one he supposedly gave us.
It's the latter. And he extends some of that moral privilege to his Chosen People. Nobody ever said Canaanites (IMO whites, this is the best fit) could own slaves, so in that way it's consistent. But that's exactly why God, whether he exists or not, is useless to anyone else trying to attain morality.

However even for Jews (and you can convert, so still possibly everyone)...

If morality is just what God says, then as long as he keeps saying what he says now you can be moral by keeping it. But God does deceive. He deceived Abraham into thinking Isaac needed to be sacrificed. The uselessness is in the pudding. If it's just what God says then he may say something else tomorrow and not even tell you, and some people may not think he would ever do that, but that doesn't satisfy me to rest the obtainment of morality on someone who is every bit entitled to change their mind just deciding not to change their mind. I need something more solid.

And actually I don't think Christians are happy with this either. I think many of them are self-deceived. I don't think very many at all would obey God if he came down from the clouds and said sacrifice your kid it's okay it's moral because I said so. Remember, this is what you have to be willing to accept to worship this God. I don't think they would. I think they'd stop being Christians. I think they're using someone else's God as a placeholder for their own internal morality which I guess is fine - however you obtain morality I would say plus to you.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:36 amNeither of which does much to persuade me to invest much trust in the Bible or in any of the religions it spawned.
No, I don't see why you would.

I just happen to be on their side with the slavery thing because 1) we don't know it was anywhere near as bad as American slavery and 2) I don't see a moral inconsistency. I don't see that something is called something and immediately decide it must be bad. If they actually kept to the no permanent damage thing I see it as an upgrade to walmart's working conditions, which leave people crippled. Just go in there and look a how many of the middle and older aged workers are wearing braces on their backs and legs and arms and you'll see permanent damage. Now, I don't know that the ancient Hebrews kept to the no permanent damage on beatings, but I also don't know that they didn't, so this is not a yes it was better but more of a no it was not automatically worse, just because they had something that was called slavery and we don't.
I cannot buy that one because ownership of people as property is something very specific and the Bible knows it; it knows that people don't want to be slaves, but it nowhere condemns it.

I see the excuse that it was not as bad as American slavery as hopefully speculative and irrelevant. Owning people as slaves is bad and they don't want to be owned even in Rome where some slaves might be treated quite well. They all wanted to be free. The Bible knows this and God says nothing

I don't buy the working conditions excuse. People get scammed online. That does not excuse slavery. People get robbed or hit by cars. That does not excuse slavery. People get sold rubbish goods or get underpaid. That does not excuse (nor equate) to slavery.

If this or that company has poor working conditions (and not for all I know a disability employment policy) that can be addressed because we have legal standards. That includes 'No Slavery'. The Bible does not, and if God knew as much as modern humans (as well as existing of course) He should have said something. Like an 11th commandment. After all, his people had only just been freed from slavery.

Because I don't say that God approves or slavery . I say the people who write the Bible were ok with it, and it has nothing to do with any god that might exist.

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Re: A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

Post #410

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #401]

There is no causal connection between your two paragraphs to say Thus.

The Bible is deep in the mud of reality which is blood, death, hatred and slavery - today we call that human nature.

Then, according to the story, God subverts those ideals and frees us from them. Not by running from reality but by defeating it, on a cross. Christ is the foundation stone of our freedom, by being the perfect slave, even unto death, so that we could finally see ourselves as we are and see God as God is.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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