A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the goal was to "love your fellow man as yourself," then maybe God was speaking about 'free men' alone? Seems there exists a differing set of rules for (the free verses the enslaved)?

LEVITICUS 24:22

You are to have the same standard of law for the foreign resident and the native; for I am the LORD your God.'"

NUMBERS 15:16
16 There should be one law and one judicial decision for you and for the foreigner who is residing with you.’

[JehovahsWitness]

... the OT already instructs ..., how you may beat your slaves..

DOES THE BIBLE INSTRUCT SLAVEOWNERS ON THE PROPER WAY TO BEAT THEIR SLAVES?



Absolutely not. There are no instructions in the Hebrew bible as to how to correctly beat one's slave. God does not instruct anyone to beat a slave either as regard severity or manner (from the front or from behind). Those that take inference from punitive measures do so without and valid basis and contrary to both the letter and the spirit of the law.








SLAVE BEATING AND THE HEBREWS BIBLE



PERMITS

Does the Hebrew bible condone beating one's slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078537#p1078537

Does the Hebrew bible instruct owners to beat their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078725#p1078725

Does the Hebrew bible say owners may beat their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078598#p1078598

Does the Hebrew bible allow slaveowners to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

Does the Hebrew bible instruct HOW to beat one's slave?
viewtopic.php?p=1078725#p1078725

Would Hebrew slaveowner be permitted to beat a slave from the back?
viewtopic.php?p=1079667#p1079667

ARGUMENTS FROM SILENCE

Can an argument from silence be made or slavebeaters?
viewtopic.php?p=1079578#p1079578

Is NOT demanding the death penalty for all beatings of slave "effectively" de facto permission to beat them?
viewtopic.php?p=1078846#p1078846

PUNISHMENT

Did God order absolute immunity for slavebeaters?
viewtopic.php?p=1079551#p1079551

Did slave owners in biblical times escape absolutely ALL punishment if unintentional manslaughter could be established?
viewtopic.php?p=1078563#p1078563

Can an argument from silence be made or slavebeaters?
viewtopic.php?p=1079578#p1079578

Is NOT demanding the death penalty for all beatings of slave "effectively" de facto permission to beat them?
viewtopic.php?p=1078846#p1078846

LAW OF LOVE

Does the bible indicate how God would have felt about slaveowners beatings their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078599#p1078599

Did the principle of loving one's neighbour EXCLUDE foreign slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1079896#p1079896

Was there really "one law" (one standard of law) for all people that lived in ancient Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079612#p1079612

How can there be one LAW if different rules apply to different people?
viewtopic.php?p=1079662#p1079662

Could the "Law of Love" found at Leviticus 19:18b, co-exist in a system that allows for lifelong slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079905#p1079905

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY , SLAVE BEATING and ...ABOLITION

[TRANSPONDER]

Misdirection yet again. Specifically, the good old strawman - changing the objection or question to a different one. It is not that the Bible instructs how to beat a slave but tells you that it's ok not only to own a slave (foreign ones for life, remember, so none of that 'Indentured servitude' stuff) but to beat a slave so long as it doesn't die right away.

Exodus 21:26-27 ESV
“When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

and the NT seems fine with all of this.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 ESV
Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

Ephesians 6:5 ESV
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,


Never forget - the slave owners in America could use the Bible to justify slave ownership; abolitionists had to resort to the humanist argument that we are all the same species.

[TRANSPONDER]

Sorry, deleted the most relevant passage.
Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Again, this is the writer trying to be fair and reasonable according to the mores of the time, but it is still showing that (a postulated) God is ok with slavery. The whole Bible is - New T and Old. There's no getting away from it no matter haw the apologists try to wriggle and turn.

[brunumb]

Exodus 21:26-27 ESV
“When a man strikes the eye of his servant, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the servant go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his servant, male or female, he shall let the servant go free because of his tooth.

Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV
As for your male and female servants whom you may have: you may buy male and female servants from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make servants of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

and the NT seems fine with all of this.

Just wanted to see how that would read from an 'interpreted' perspective

[POI]

You can beat them.

DOES THE BIBLE SAY YOU "MAY BEAT YOUR SLAVES"?


Absolutely not; those words"You may beat your slave" "You have the right to BEAT your slave" are not in the Hebrew bible. Those that conclude such an inference are ignoring both the context and the principles of the Mosaic law.

Here is what the Bible instructs, (again):

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." (Ex. 21:20-21)

Hence, the writer is telling the reader that if the slave is beaten, and they recover, they are NOT to be punished.

Post #21

Post #43

Post #46 (i.e.)

"The Bible instructs no punishment, provided they do not die immediately, or their eyes or teeth fall out. In the eye's of God, no crime was then committed. Otherwise, He would state not to - like He mentions not to immediately kill them, or knock out their eyes and teeth. As you already alluded to prior, Jesus was not there to 'govern'. If other's decide to (shun/other) the slave master, because a slave eventually died from infection/other, due to a 'severe' beating, that's their decision(s)…"

[POI]

If the goal was to "love your fellow man as yourself," then maybe God was speaking about 'free men' alone? Seems there exists a differing set of rules for (the free verses the enslaved)?

LEVITICUS 24:22

You are to have the same standard of law for the foreign resident and the native; for I am the LORD your God.'"

NUMBERS 15:16
16 There should be one law and one judicial decision for you and for the foreigner who is residing with you.’

These verses do not address my observation. I stated there looks to possibly be differing laws between (the free vs. the enslaved). Providing random Verses, which expresses both (foreign and domestic), does not look to apply to my case. You look to be arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges. As I stated in my prior post, please address the Chapters I had already alluded to --> (via Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25).

[POI]

... the OT already instructs ..., how you may beat your slaves..

DOES THE BIBLE INSTRUCT SLAVEOWNERS ON THE PROPER WAY TO BEAT THEIR SLAVES?


Absolutely not. There are no instructions in the Hebrew bible as to how to correctly beat one's slave. God does not instruct anyone to beat a slave either as regard severity or manner (from the front or from behind). Those that take inference from punitive measures do so without and valid basis and contrary to both the letter and the spirit of the law.

Well, apparently God was already consulted on the matters of 'slavery'. Seems He instructs that punishment is only to be issued in the result of immediate death, or missing eyes/teeth. So yea, you can and may otherwise beat your slaves from the backside, at will, with IMPUNITY - provided you do not infringe upon the three noted outcomes.

[JehovahsWitness]

...the Bible ... tells you that it's ok ...to beat a slave so long as it doesn't die right away.

DOES THE BIBLE SAY IT IS OK [ACCEPTABLE] TO BEAT A SLAVE?


Absolutely not; those words"You may beat your slave... so long as it doesn't die right away." "You have the right to BEAT your slave" or "It is permissible to beat your slave " are not in the Hebrew bible. Those that conclude such an inference from the limited punitive measrures stipulated are ignoring both the context and the principles of the Mosaic law.


SLAVE BEATING AND THE HEBREWS BIBLE

Does the Hebrew bible condone beating one's slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078537#p1078537

Does the Hebrew bible say owners may beat their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078598#p1078598

Does the Hebrew bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

Does the Hebrew bible say it's OK to beat a slave ?
viewtopic.php?p=1078758#p1078758

Does the Hebrew bible instruct HOW beat one's slave?
viewtopic.php?p=1078725#p1078725

Did slave owners in biblical times escape absolutely ALL punishment if unintentional manslaughter could be established?
viewtopic.php?p=1078563#p1078563

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, SLAVE BEATING and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[TRANSPONDER]

Absolutely yes.

Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

I know you won't try to pull "It doesn't use those exact words. You are too honest other than to admit that it effectively says that you can beat your slave so long as they don't die within a day or two. If they do, the owner is punished. If they don't (and recover) the owner is not punished.

The Bible is absolutely and indisputably Ok with owning slaves (foreign slaves for life) and knocking them about, within set limits. You cannot honestly make it say what it doesn't say.