A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[Miles]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Not confusing at all. Jesus simply approved of owning other human beings. Hardly moral IMO, but there you are. Nobody's perfect.

.

[theophile]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Slavery is a major concern of Jesus' ministry, it just goes by a different name: servanthood. That's what Jesus identifies as: a servant. So he doesn't abolish it because why would he abolish what he is and calls us to be?

Rather than abolishing slavery he would transform it into servanthood.

[POI]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Slavery is a major concern of Jesus' ministry, it just goes by a different name: servanthood. That's what Jesus identifies as: a servant. So he doesn't abolish it because why would he abolish what he is and calls us to be?

Rather than abolishing slavery he would transform it into servanthood.

Interesting take... Are some of these now newly defined 'servants' still to be kept for life, as property, and beaten with virtual impunity, by their masters; or not?

If not, I would like to know where Jesus abolishes the instructions given in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25? Seems He only instead reinforces the act of a "human master/human slave" relationship -- (as already identified in the OP).

[Miles]

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Slavery is a major concern of Jesus' ministry,

Absolutely. Jesus didn't want to see the ownership of humans come to an end for a number of reasons:

As enumerated in the Bible, it gave the slave owner the right to Buy them from among the strangers. . . . that they may be one's property. Leviticus 25:44-5. "bequeath them to his sons . . . as a possession forever." Leviticus 25:46. Freely strike them with a rod as long as they didn't die within a day or two. Exodus 1:20-21. And nicely enough, slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; Titus 2:9. Furthermore, If a slave's master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's. Exodus 21:4. And strangely enough . . . or maybe not . . . a man has the right to sell his daughter as a slave. Exodus 21:7. -----So much for the true worth of women.

it just goes by a different name: servanthood.

Because, not wanting to lose such privileges, Jesus wanted to hide the vile practice behind a less noxious word. See above.

Rather than abolishing slavery he would transform it into servanthood.

And a rose by any other name . . . .


.

[bjs1]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Just to clarify, am I correct in assuming when you say “Jesus condones it [slavery]” you mean Paul and not Jesus? The NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery all.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Just to clarify, am I correct in assuming when you say “Jesus condones it [slavery]” you mean Paul and not Jesus? The NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery all.

Does Jesus disagree with Paul?

[bjs1]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Just to clarify, am I correct in assuming when you say “Jesus condones it [slavery]” you mean Paul and not Jesus? The NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery all.

Does Jesus disagree with Paul?

I'm just trying to get a sense of what your argument is. Since orthodox Christians consider the whole NT to be authoritative, you could have just attributed the concept to the New Testament. Attributing concepts to Jesus that he never spoke on muddies the waters.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Just to clarify, am I correct in assuming when you say “Jesus condones it [slavery]” you mean Paul and not Jesus? The NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery all.

Does Jesus disagree with Paul?

I'm just trying to get a sense of what your argument is. Since orthodox Christians consider the whole NT to be authoritative, you could have just attributed the concept to the New Testament. Attributing concepts to Jesus that he never spoke on muddies the waters.

You did not answer my question. Does Jesus disagree with Paul - (yes or no)?

If "yes", then we can open that can-o-worms.
If "no", then it does not matter if "the NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery at all"

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Just to clarify, am I correct in assuming when you say “Jesus condones it [slavery]” you mean Paul and not Jesus? The NT does not record Jesus mentioning slavery all.

Does Jesus disagree with Paul?

I'm just trying to get a sense of what your argument is. Since orthodox Christians consider the whole NT to be authoritative, you could have just attributed the concept to the New Testament. Attributing concepts to Jesus that he never spoke on muddies the waters.

It's more the whole Biblical attitude towards slavery - Silence gives assent'. God does not tell his people not to own slaves, but says how they should be treated. An effort to be humane or at least reasonable, but it is condoning and not forbidding. Paul is of course specific in saying that Slaves should put up with it. Incidentally, I do not buy the apologetic that 'we are all slaves'. There is a difference between having to find ways to live in the world (exchanging work for wherewithal) or signing up to a belief or worldview and being someone's property.

As to Jesus, he does not say 'Ye have read that ye shall let a Hebrew slave go after 7 years, unless you got him a wife and he elects to stay your slave, but Foreign slaves are yours for life; but I say to you that you shall not own another human being as property." Considering that Jesus is always banging on about the right way to treat people, that's a serious omission. Just think - humans have decided that slavery is wrong, but neither Jesus, Paul or God could bother to say that.

Jesus (1) healing a slave or servant by remote control in Capernaum never mentions that people should not own slaves or that one day slavery will be considered wrong. This is just another clue that these were the attitudes and customs of the time, and nobody with divine wisdom or knowing all things was behind the writing of this material. That's the real point here.

(1) according to Luke..hang on....yes, chapter 7. In Matthew, a servant, which might not be a slave, but Luke says it was. Mark does not have this so it's probably "Q" material except that John has also heard the story in a different form. There it's a ruler's son.