A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[POI]

I already issued direct assertions/instructions from (Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.). Such passages condone/sanction/allow impunity for beating your slaves.

And I have already said I do not agree that is the case.



Does the bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

Then you are wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please allow me to drive this point home. Jesus did not abolish "Biblical slavery," or abstain from mentioning "slavery" at all because He agreed with "slavery". Hence, there would be nothing for Him to 'govern' in the first place.

You seem to be repeating yourself. Did I not say if you are refering to the Hebrew system as outlined in scripture I agree.

"Biblical slavery" sanctions humans as becoming lifetime property -- for which you can beat with virtual impunity; via Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.

I. Do. Not. Agree. That. That. Is. The. Case.


I typed super slowly so you don't get confused.



JW

[POI]

I. Do. Not. Agree. That. That. Is. The. Case.


I typed super slowly so you don't get confused.



JW

Ah, the personal attacks continue.... No surprise.

"Biblical slavery" DOES condone virtual impunity for beating your slaves (i.e.):


“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." (Ex. 21)

Okay, now that we've established that the slave master is NOT to be punished, as long as the slave does not die or have their eyes or teeth removed (via Ex. 21:26-27), let's continue....

Does the Bible instruct lifetime slavery, as property? Well, let's read...

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

If you do not agree, now, that the definition of "Biblical slavery" condones lifetime property rights, with virtual impunity to beatings, please clarify?

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE HEBREW BIBLE CONDONE THE BEATING OF SLAVES?


Virtual impunity is not impunity. Severely beating ones slave was illegal, incurred punitive charges if the slave was injured and if the slave died could incur the death penalty. By no stretch of the imagination can this amount to condonation"

TO CONDONE

: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

JW



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[POI]

I already issued direct assertions/instructions from (Ex. 21 and Lev. 25.). Such passages condone/sanction/allow impunity for beating your slaves.

And I have already said I do not agree that is the case.



Does the bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

Then you are wrong.

No I am not wrong. You are wrong.

"Biblical slavery" DOES condone virtual impunity for beating your slaves (i.e.):

Virtual impunity is not impunity. Severely beating ones slave was illegal, incurred punitive charges if the slave was injured and if the slave died carried the death penalty. By no stretch of the imagination can this amount to condonation"

TO CONDONE

: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

Um, I've offered the specific Bible Verses, more than once. I've highlighted the Bible statements, which support my findings. You continue to ignore them. Thus, your response is baseless.

As to your baseless response....

"Virtual impunity is not impunity." This response is nonsense. Notice I state you are not to be punished as long as you do not kill them, or knock out their eyes or teeth. Otherwise, no punishment at all - (ala Ex. 21:20-27). This is what is meant by <virtual impunity>

As to your statement "Severely beating ones slave was illegal". This response is nonsense. Exodus 21 tells the reader that the master is NOT to be punished IF..... (again Ex. 21:20-27). This instruction excludes immediate death, or missing eyes or teeth. That's it. If a slave master was to give their slave 100 lashes, to the back side, for not meeting their given quota that day, common sense would highly suggest the master was absolved from any type of punishment.

I would continue, but you are merely ignoring key elements to suite your own agenda

And BTW, by "condone", I mean it is allowed without being considered a 'sin' by God.

[JehovahsWitness]

Um, I've offered the specific Bible Verses, more than once. I've highlighted the Bible statements, which support my findings. You continue to ignore them.

I have not ignored them. I acknowledge the words are there but contest that your conclusion about the meaning and implications of those words (namely that scripture "condones" mistreatment, that there was no virtually no punishment for beatings one's slave) is wrong. Given the relevant laws that existed at the time, my position is far from baseless, on the contrary unless you have an alternate definition of the word to condone, my understanding is much more in line with the entirity of the text than yours.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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Does the Hebrew bible condone beating one's slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078537#p1078537

Does the bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

Did slave owners in biblical times escape absolutely all punishment if unintentional manslaughter could be established?
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[POI]

Um, I've offered the specific Bible Verses, more than once. I've highlighted the Bible statements, which support my findings. You continue to ignore them.

I have not ignored them. I acknowledge the words are there but contest that your conclusion about the meaning and implications of those words (namely that scripture "condones" mistreatment, that there was no virtually no punishment for beatings one's slave) is wrong. Given the relevant laws that existed at the time, my position is far from baseless, on the contrary unless you have an alternate definition of the word to condone, my understanding is much more in line with the text the entirity of the text than yours.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Until you actually address, or give rebuttal, to the Scripture I have translated prior; your responses continue to be baseless.

[JehovahsWitness]

Um, I've offered the specific Bible Verses, more than once. I've highlighted the Bible statements, which support my findings. You continue to ignore them.

I have not ignored them. I acknowledge the words are there but contest that your conclusion about the meaning and implications of those words (namely that scripture "condones" mistreatment, that there was no virtually no punishment for beatings one's slave) is wrong. Given the relevant laws that existed at the time, my position is far from baseless, on the contrary unless you have an alternate definition of the word to condone, my understanding is much more in line with the text the entirity of the text than yours.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Until you actually address, or give rebuttal, to the Scripture I have translated prior; your responses continue to be baseless.

I have given scripture based rebuttals to your points.


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Does the Hebrew bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
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Did God order absolute immunity for slavebeaters?
viewtopic.php?p=1079551#p1079551

Does the Hebrew bible instruct HOW beat one's slave?
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Is not demanding the death penalty for all beatings of slave "effectively" de facto permission ?
viewtopic.php?p=1078846#p1078846

Does the bible indicate how God would have felt about slaveowners beatings their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078599#p1078599

Were foreign slaves considered chattle ?
viewtopic.php?p=1079301#p1079301

Would Hebrew slaveowner be permitted to beat a slave from the back?
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Did slave owners in biblical times escape absolutely ALL punishment if unintentional manslaughter could be established?
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[JehovahsWitness]

If you do not agree, now, that the definition of "Biblical slavery" condones lifetime property rights...?

If you were referring to non-Israelites I have not voice any disagreement to that.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... SLAVE BEATING

[POI]

Um, I've offered the specific Bible Verses, more than once. I've highlighted the Bible statements, which support my findings. You continue to ignore them.

I have not ignored them. I acknowledge the words are there but contest that your conclusion about the meaning and implications of those words (namely that scripture "condones" mistreatment, that there was no virtually no punishment for beatings one's slave) is wrong. Given the relevant laws that existed at the time, my position is far from baseless, on the contrary unless you have an alternate definition of the word to condone, my understanding is much more in line with the text the entirity of the text than yours.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Until you actually address, or give rebuttal, to the Scripture I have translated prior; your responses continue to be baseless.

I have given scripture based rebuttals to your points.

Does the Hebrew bible condone beating one's slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078537#p1078537

Does the bible say slave owners were allowed to beat their slaves ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

Providing a link, to have me play "where's Waldo" doesn't really count

Sounds like your argument, thus far, would be as follows...?

(Paraphrased) "Sure, the Bible tells it's readers that beating your slaves, (just short of immediate death or removing their eyes and teeth), is not to be punished. But that doesn't mean the Bible actually 'condones/allows/sanctifies' everything else; aside from those three exempt traits of (immediate death, missing eyes, and missing teeth)."

Is this your argument, in a nutshell?