is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despair?

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is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despair?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

It occurred to me that when everything is going badly in life that 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despair and nihilism.

Without believing in a good God, there is really no reason to believe that life should not be the way it is.

Does anyone want to give some reasons for or against this?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #41

Post by Wootah »

Willum wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:13 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #38]

If your objective good is to sell rape victims to their rapists for 50 shekels, I prefer nihilism.

However, moral absolutism comes about through harm inspired by malice.

If there is harm and malice that is absolute morality. Or weal for its own sake.

Having an abomination as your moral standard is nauseating.

Having nothing is better.

Besides you are neglecting the fact that the thing you are citing as a moral authority, is just giving its opinion, without any reason to believe it has superior credibility.
All I am saying is that believing in objective good is a good idea because it gives us a reason to struggle - to say this situation is not good and I will move in another direction. You aren't countering that.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #42

Post by Wootah »

brunumb wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:00 pm
Wootah wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:50 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:06 pm
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:13 am I don't think we have any evidence for that God is not good.
Yes we do, the Bible. While it may contain a lot of things that suggest God is good, there is enough there to show that he is not. A bit like the man living next door for decades who is a wonderful neighbour, goes to church, helps out in the community and so on, but then turns out to be a serial killer. It all depends on what we see and sometimes what we choose not to see.
Do you see that your relativist door swings both ways? You are seeing what you want to see and so nullifying your point?
I'm happy to accept that. My point is aimed at those choosing to see that Bible God is only ever good.
Well you can start a thread on what you see as evidence of God not being good and we can discuss that? What is a specific example of that (in another thread)?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #43

Post by Wootah »

Diogenes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:45 am
Wootah wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:28 am Without believing in a good God, there is really no reason to believe that life should not be the way it is.
This seems like another way of saying "Not believing in God = belief in reality."
Well, I want to respond, it is a cute comment, but is it on the topic? Can you explain that or is it a one-liner mic drop?

If in reality, we can see better or worse, even if dimly, then it speaks to there being either an objective or an illusion (subjective good). If there is an objective good then it must be part of reality whereas a subjective good would not be.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #44

Post by William »

Wootah wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:21 pm
Diogenes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:45 am
Wootah wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:28 am Without believing in a good God, there is really no reason to believe that life should not be the way it is.
This seems like another way of saying "Not believing in God = belief in reality."
Well, I want to respond, it is a cute comment, but is it on the topic? Can you explain that or is it a one-liner mic drop?

If in reality, we can see better or worse, even if dimly, then it speaks to there being either an objective or an illusion (subjective good). If there is an objective good then it must be part of reality whereas a subjective good would not be.
I do not think your reasoning is well enough explained Wootah.

All good or evil [et al] are measured by the subject - even the external/objective ones.

One can look at the image below and declare "Awesome!" [good] and well it might be, but it is still a subjective measurement [as all measurements are] and thus subjective good is indeed, an aspect [part] of reality...or what you seem to be declaring 'an illusion'.

Image
The Hubble telescope has captured an image of an unusual edge-on galaxy, revealing remarkable details of its warped dusty disk and showing how colliding galaxies spawn the formation of new generations of stars. The dust and spiral arms of normal spiral galaxies, like our own Milky Way, appear flat when viewed edge-on. This Hubble Heritage image of ESO 510-G13 shows a galaxy that, by contrast, has an unusual twisted disk structure, first seen in ground-based photographs.

Credit:
NASA/ESA and The Hubble Heritage Team (STScI/AURA)

______________________________________________

In answer to the thread Q;

Is 'believing (against the evidence) that 'God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despair?

I think part of the despair involved comes through the subjective reaction to the depth of the experiential reality we all find ourselves within, and in that - the idea of GOD [Cosmic Mind, Source et al] being 'good' would and should stave off said despair, and it is reasonable to think so.

There is a word for it.

Cataphatic (of knowledge of God) obtained through defining God with positive statements.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #45

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Wootah in post #41]
All I am saying is that believing in objective good is a good idea because it gives us a reason to struggle - to say this situation is not good and I will move in another direction. You aren't countering that.
I am saying that the motivations you speak of are greater without a creator, than with.

Do we value synthetic gems more than natural? No.
Is synthetic life more valuable than natural? No.

Life derived without a creator is more wondrous than with.
Deriving morality, without blaming the opinion of an individual, no matter how powerful, is a triumph.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #46

Post by Wootah »

Willum wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:35 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #41]
All I am saying is that believing in objective good is a good idea because it gives us a reason to struggle - to say this situation is not good and I will move in another direction. You aren't countering that.
I am saying that the motivations you speak of are greater without a creator, than with.

Do we value synthetic gems more than natural? No.
Is synthetic life more valuable than natural? No.

Life derived without a creator is more wondrous than with.
Deriving morality, without blaming the opinion of an individual, no matter how powerful, is a triumph.
Do we value synthetic gems more than natural? No. (Why do you say no)
Is synthetic life more valuable than natural? No. (Why do you say no)
Life derived without a creator is more wondrous than with. (What evidence do you have for that?)
Deriving morality, without blaming the opinion of an individual, no matter how powerful, is a triumph. (When did that happen?)

Anyway, you are opening too many doors - I am happy to explore them in other threads time willing.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #47

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We have clearly got onto argument from morality again. Unless God dictates morality it isn't real, but 'subjective'. The 'fake gems'. But I argue that if morality is just what someone says, that is the fake morality. Real morality is that coming from instinct, which is as Objective as you are going to get.

We can even see how morality has evolved, with the various law codes. It's been argued long enough that the OT just in't moral; Christian apologists have had to argue that the OT was superseded by Jesus who made it all much nicer. This is just the old story of Christianity playing catch - up with human morality. And it is still having to do so, where it isn't trying to turn the clock back.

Also there is this; aside Moral instructions in the Bible, suppose it was God imprinting the innate morals in our minds ("On our hearts" as Paul has it) as with a lot of this basic stuff ascribed to a Cosmic Mind, which god are we talking about? Christians so often seem to think that there is only ever one possible god and religion to credit for this stuff.

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #48

Post by Wootah »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:20 am We have clearly got onto argument from morality again. Unless God dictates morality it isn't real, but 'subjective'. The 'fake gems'. But I argue that if morality is just what someone says, that is the fake morality. Real morality is that coming from instinct, which is as Objective as you are going to get.

We can even see how morality has evolved, with the various law codes. It's been argued long enough that the OT just in't moral; Christian apologists have had to argue that the OT was superseded by Jesus who made it all much nicer. This is just the old story of Christianity playing catch - up with human morality. And it is still having to do so, where it isn't trying to turn the clock back.

Also there is this; aside Moral instructions in the Bible, suppose it was God imprinting the innate morals in our minds ("On our hearts" as Paul has it) as with a lot of this basic stuff ascribed to a Cosmic Mind, which god are we talking about? Christians so often seem to think that there is only ever one possible god and religion to credit for this stuff.
Since the OP is using the word good, we must be in the realm of morality.

Christians don't argue the OT is superseded.

Give an example of human morality being ahead of the Bible morality (in a new thread preferably)?

Paul never said God is on your heart. Which verse do you mean?
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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #49

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Wootah wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:56 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:20 am We have clearly got onto argument from morality again. Unless God dictates morality it isn't real, but 'subjective'. The 'fake gems'. But I argue that if morality is just what someone says, that is the fake morality. Real morality is that coming from instinct, which is as Objective as you are going to get.

We can even see how morality has evolved, with the various law codes. It's been argued long enough that the OT just in't moral; Christian apologists have had to argue that the OT was superseded by Jesus who made it all much nicer. This is just the old story of Christianity playing catch - up with human morality. And it is still having to do so, where it isn't trying to turn the clock back.

Also there is this; aside Moral instructions in the Bible, suppose it was God imprinting the innate morals in our minds ("On our hearts" as Paul has it) as with a lot of this basic stuff ascribed to a Cosmic Mind, which god are we talking about? Christians so often seem to think that there is only ever one possible god and religion to credit for this stuff.
Since the OP is using the word good, we must be in the realm of morality.

Christians don't argue the OT is superseded.

Give an example of human morality being ahead of the Bible morality (in a new thread preferably)?

Paul never said God is on your heart. Which verse do you mean?
Ok. The topic does cover morality.

Written on our heart? :)
2 Corinthians 3:3 ESV
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Psalm 40:8 ESV / 34 helpful votes
I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”

Romans 2:14-16 ESV
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:2 ESV
You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all.

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 ESV
You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Romans 2:15 ESV
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them


You didn't know this? dude, this is 1st year apologetics basics. And Christian apologists do (at need) argue that the OT is superseded (The New covenant/Jesus made all things new) as i have come across the apologetic every time the Christian apologist gets into deep mire having to defend the nasty stuff in the OT. They just say 'Jesus made it all new'.

I can give an example of better human morality; slavery. It's been under discussion for a few days already. Don't you read any other threads?

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Re: is 'believing (against the evidence) that God is good' is a very good psychological protection mechanism from despai

Post #50

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

I find when people ask obvious questions, they know they have lost an argument.
A cursory examination into synthetic vs natural gemstones would answer the question without being argumentative.

Your premise that life is more valuable WITH a creator is the fallacy in question.
Creators make things with purpose. What if we were created as custodians of the Earth, and instead introduced the Holocene Extinction?
What if our purpose is the Holocene Extinction?
If the creator made us to be bad, then all this talk about goodness is preposterous.

All I can see is that the assumption that we have purpose because of a creator is a result of brainwashing, and is a variation of the "Appeal to Authority" fallacy.

First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of mine.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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