The Terror of God

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The Terror of God

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

The Terror of God
or Why He is not Here

In the beginning… there was no beginning. There was just God. He was alone and he was perfect. He knew everything. He knew everything that could ever be, would ever happen. And he was alone.

Because he knew everything he knew what he would do and what would happen. He wanted to create, he wanted company, he wanted there to be worlds and worlds of people. He wanted life.

But he knew that he already knew what would happen, what he would create and what every thought of every person would be. Because he already knew it was as if it had happened and was deep in the past. There was no future, no past, there was no point or purpose in creating what he already fully understood because it had already happened. The Past, Present, and Future were One.

This awareness was his terror and his reason for doing nothing. He knew he was to live an eternity alone, that there was no purpose, there was no reason to create that which already fully existed in his memory. He was alone and could create nothing to surprise himself, nothing he did not already know as fully as he new himself. He was alone with nothingness and no reason to create.

He could not even enjoy a joke because he knew the punchline before the joke began.

Proposition for Debate:
There is no God, because if there were, he would not have bothered to create the universe or us. Therefore, does not our very existence prove there is no God?
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Re: The Terror of God

Post #31

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:21 pm
William wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 3:00 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #4]
Because we actually ARE, and are not God, therefore this impossibly omniscient/omnipontent God can not exist.
It appears that here, you are relying upon an image of GOD which we can agree comes through the particular culture you and I came through experience of.

I see also that you have included the factor of all-powerfulness too.

Critique of this image has merit, but no merit if the critique is simply focused on GOD not existing.
Diogenes: For this Biblical 'God' to think is to create.
Thus it could be argued that we are within and experiencing the thoughts of GOD and what we experience and call "reality" is actually GOD thinking thoughts.
Diogenes: Because we actually ARE, and are not God, therefore this impossibly omniscient/omnipontent God can not exist.
Unless we are actually GOD, in which case GOD can exist.

Biblically this idea of "The Breath of GOD" equates to GOD-Consciousness giving life to the imagined forms and thus experiencing those form from those forms particular subjective places in the overall thoughts of GOD.

This concept also bleeds over into the Eastern Culture of Humanity - many of which already stipulate GOD inseparable from Creation...although it could also be said that Creation is inseparable from GOD.

An all-powerful GODs thoughts could create this Universe...

viewtopic.php?p=1079719#p1079719
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 5:32 pm That does actually resonate with me. The thing is, that everything appears to be near nothing arranged in working order. Some say this is arranged and ordered by a Cosmic Mind, and others say that it IS the Cosmic Mind. Either is possible.
If I am understanding you correctly, it seems to me that there is no necessity to separate the activity of a Cosmic Mind from the Cosmic Mind.
If it was outside of everything, there would be reason to see it as separate from its' activity. It is WAS everything , then its' mind and its' activity would be the same. But to topic...the idea of it creating because of a terror of being alone, is a terrible terror. However, creating humans seems like getting an ant farm to cure loneliness. Still, that might be enough.

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #32

Post by William »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:19 pm
William wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:21 pm
William wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 3:00 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #4]
Because we actually ARE, and are not God, therefore this impossibly omniscient/omnipontent God can not exist.
It appears that here, you are relying upon an image of GOD which we can agree comes through the particular culture you and I came through experience of.

I see also that you have included the factor of all-powerfulness too.

Critique of this image has merit, but no merit if the critique is simply focused on GOD not existing.
Diogenes: For this Biblical 'God' to think is to create.
Thus it could be argued that we are within and experiencing the thoughts of GOD and what we experience and call "reality" is actually GOD thinking thoughts.
Diogenes: Because we actually ARE, and are not God, therefore this impossibly omniscient/omnipontent God can not exist.
Unless we are actually GOD, in which case GOD can exist.

Biblically this idea of "The Breath of GOD" equates to GOD-Consciousness giving life to the imagined forms and thus experiencing those form from those forms particular subjective places in the overall thoughts of GOD.

This concept also bleeds over into the Eastern Culture of Humanity - many of which already stipulate GOD inseparable from Creation...although it could also be said that Creation is inseparable from GOD.

An all-powerful GODs thoughts could create this Universe...

viewtopic.php?p=1079719#p1079719
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 5:32 pm That does actually resonate with me. The thing is, that everything appears to be near nothing arranged in working order. Some say this is arranged and ordered by a Cosmic Mind, and others say that it IS the Cosmic Mind. Either is possible.
If I am understanding you correctly, it seems to me that there is no necessity to separate the activity of a Cosmic Mind from the Cosmic Mind.
If it was outside of everything, there would be reason to see it as separate from its' activity.
Logically - since the Cosmic Mind is part of 'everything', to separate it from everything else would go against logic...therefore it is better to keep it as a part of everything...
If it WAS everything , then its' mind and its' activity would be the same.


Which follows the logic. Not only is it part of everything, it is the reason everything exists - so it would be more accurate to define "everything else" as part of it and in doing so - remove the 'else' bit...the Cosmic Mind and stuff...


But to topic...the idea of it creating because of a terror of being alone, is a terrible terror.
However, creating humans seems like getting an ant farm to cure loneliness. Still, that might be enough.
Speculation at best - it anthropomorphizes human emotion and superimposes that into the reason why a Cosmic Mind would think the universe into existence...One cannot ever be alone as long as one has ones self.

Forgetting oneself in order to bypass the static structure of being all-knowing, by creating form and occupying oneself within said form, having designed said form to limit conscious awareness of everything...being the ants rather than the all-knowing...such forms would be useful to that purpose.

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #33

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Excellent and throught provoking speculations about a possible cosmic mind.....ah well, back to trashing the Bible.

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #34

Post by William »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:34 pm Excellent and throught provoking speculations about a possible cosmic mind.....ah well, back to trashing the Bible.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You are obviously intelligent enough to do better than be distracted by mundane pursuits. :)

Perhaps it is the fear of the knowable unknown?


24:00 & 30:00
A type of 'leg-up' but no more or less than that
A physical manifestation of a mental projection
Perhaps it is the fear of the knowable unknown?
Last edited by William on Tue May 31, 2022 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #35

Post by TRANSPONDER »

:chuckel: No it's just that it's of no more than academic interest (1). Just as Fermi's paradox is. It doesn't actually matter to me whether there is an intelligent civilisation in a galaxy far, far away, and I'm not going to lose sleep (or much posting time 8-) ) over it. However, ET pilots shanking about the scenery OR a Personal god interacting with humans and possibly burning anyone who picks the wrong religion, Does merit my attention. A possible god of Einstein (the computer that runs the universe) isn't something I'm going to fret about. I shall watch your speculations with interest, at least, but I'm not investing and I'm out.

(1) One of the first lessons that recruits into the Atheist Infiltration Squad go through in their combat training is to overcome Fear of Woo.

"Everything is made of Nothing! Indeterminacy means that nothing is sure! Beware the Holographic universe."..... "Get up and stop whimpering...I want your DOE." .... "Remember, you maggotts...whatever is happening at Quantum level, the world of Physics still works as reliably as it did for Newton. Now get to the mess room, it's chow time!"

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #36

Post by William »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #35]
One of the first lessons that recruits into the Atheist Infiltration Squad go through in their combat training is to overcome Fear of Woo.
This comes across as fear-based - even with the addition of the warrior.

Give all things a fair hearing. Disclosure of knowledge...Let yourself be taught

Exhibit your innermost core
Panpsychist Science Can Be Fun Too
Sharing is part of that process
Pattern Recognition System
The Atheist Infiltration Squad

Even naming something in a derogatory fashion is symptomatic of fear.

One can take that thing meant to be derogatory and mold it into something far more useful.

Windows Of Opportunity.

['Tis specifically why theism is more interesting than non-theism.]

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #37

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Well, you know, Woo can be rather unsettling because we all live in an illusion - We think that things are really as we see them. The sky is not blue. Solid things are made of atoms - as near nothing in motion as makes no difference. Indeterminacy and the holographic universe can make us feel very insecure - unless we understand that what Reality is, is reliable and repeatable physical process, not what we can bang on a table. The Axiom is, 'Whatever happens at quantum level, Newton's laws still apply'.

That's the answer by the way, to the supposed science debunker 'human perceptions are limited and unreliable'. So they are and we get things wrong all the time. Science what we use to test and check and correct our mistakes. Religion on the other hand, rejects the science and goes with a selected set of human perceptions, all the others being rejected out of hand.

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Re: The Terror of God

Post #38

Post by William »


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Re: The Terror of God

Post #39

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Diogenes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:42 pm In the beginning… there was no beginning. There was just God. He was alone and he was perfect. He knew everything. He knew everything that could ever be, would ever happen. And he was alone.
Depending on your view of the Trinity as to whether or not he was alone.

But go ahead, you have my attention.

Because he knew everything he knew what he would do and what would happen. He wanted to create, he wanted company, he wanted there to be worlds and worlds of people. He wanted life.
\:D/ =D>
But he knew that he already knew what would happen, what he would create and what every thought of every person would be. Because he already knew it was as if it had happened and was deep in the past. There was no future, no past, there was no point or purpose in creating what he already fully understood because it had already happened. The Past, Present, and Future were One.
This is a tough one. But I am inclined to agree.
This awareness was his terror and his reason for doing nothing. He knew he was to live an eternity alone, that there was no purpose, there was no reason to create that which already fully existed in his memory. He was alone and could create nothing to surprise himself, nothing he did not already know as fully as he new himself. He was alone with nothingness and no reason to create.

He could not even enjoy a joke because he knew the punchline before the joke began.
Not necessarily. There are die hard Star Wars fans who've watched the movies countless times and still enjoy the movies every single time despite knowing everything that will happen.

Catch my drift?
Proposition for Debate:
There is no God, because if there were, he would not have bothered to create the universe or us. Therefore, does not our very existence prove there is no God?
No...because you still wont be able to explain life from nonlife. That problem aint going nowhere...and then you have the plaguing infinite regress problem which also isn't going anywhere.

God solves both problems.
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Re: The Terror of God

Post #40

Post by Diogenes »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:18 pm This is a tough one. But I am inclined to agree.
Diogenes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:42 pm This awareness was his terror and his reason for doing nothing. He knew he was to live an eternity alone, that there was no purpose, there was no reason to create that which already fully existed in his memory. He was alone and could create nothing to surprise himself, nothing he did not already know as fully as he new himself. He was alone with nothingness and no reason to create.

He could not even enjoy a joke because he knew the punchline before the joke began.
Venom:
Not necessarily. There are die hard Star Wars fans who've watched the movies countless times and still enjoy the movies every single time despite knowing everything that will happen.

Catch my drift?
Yes.
I enjoy re-watching (every 5-10 years or so) favorite old movies, especially some of Bogart's like The Big Sleep, Treasure of Sierra Madre, Dark Passage, To Have and Have Not, but mainly just selected scenes even though I can quote them. I can't watch the whole movie because I know them too well. Casablanca and The Maltese Falcon I rarely even watch a favorite scene. I know them too well.

But (and this may surprise you ;) ) I am not God. My memory is not perfect. If he wanted to see something he knew would happen, he need do nothing; the thing would just be there, unbidden and as fresh as when he first imagined (without actually creating) it.
Therefore:
Proposition for Debate:
There is no God, because if there were, he would not have bothered to create the universe or us. Therefore, does not our very existence prove there is no God?
Venom:
No...because you still wont be able to explain life from nonlife. That problem aint going nowhere...and then you have the plaguing infinite regress problem which also isn't going anywhere.

God solves both problems.
One of the reasons I believe in abiogenesis is that life finds a way. It is persistent, it is undeniable, it is invasive as anyone who has battled weeds or bacteria or seen new life sprouting from rocks can attest.

The 'infinite regress problem' is not a problem at all. It is a false flag and has been easily dealt with previously. It is a tribute to the human imagination and the desperation of 'god' believers that it ever emerged at all as a claim. It is part of the silly and feckless 'Kalam argument,' not worthy of reciting here since there are other threads that dispatch it with ease.
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