Divine Healing

[Compassionist]

I saw this video and am most impressed by this apparent divine healing. If this girl was healed by God, why doesn't God heal all Christians? I know many Christians who are ill and who have even died from various illnesses.

[TRANSPONDER]

it's a debating point to what extent God is culpable for the capacity of of humans to sin because they have a choice - ...

It might be after the premise has been established, which it has not.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, THE ORIGINAL SIN and ... RESPONSIBILITY

Of course it hasn't (and I'm glad that you admit that it hasn't ) and that's why it is a debating point.

[JehovahsWitness]

it's a debating point to what extent God is culpable for the capacity of of humans to sin because they have a choice - ...

It might be after the premise has been established, which it has not.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, THE ORIGINAL SIN and ... RESPONSIBILITY

Of course it hasn't (and I'm glad that you admit that it hasn't ) and that's why it is a debating point.

Well if you feel you can identify the premise in your sentence and support it, I'd be happy to listen.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, I want all living things to ever exist (including insects and microscopic organisms) to be given omniscience and omnipotence so that no one can harm them.

You may want that but would that really be a good idea?

1) Over one million species of insects have been discovered and described but it is estimated that there may be as many as 10 million species on earth.

2) There are approximately 1.4 billion insects for every person on Earth. The total weight of all the insects is about 70 times more than all the people.

Can you imagine what life would be like on earth if insects and all living creatures reproduced but none of them died. Would that not lead to immense suffering? Many microscopic organisms keep us healthy and enable the ecosystem to remain balanced, life would be very difficult,no impossible if they did not do their job and die when their natural life cycle was complete

As for omnipotence; can you imagine a swarm of omnipotent wasps that could not be killed? Seriously, can you not see that indescriminatly according omniscience and omnipotence to every living creature would not lead to a planet without harm but on the contrary, to about as much harm as le possible. If everybody and everything was omniscience and omnipotence, that would just make everyone equal not kind and if you accorded those capacity insects and ameoba ... you would end up with a planet as close to hell as possible could be.

[Compassionist]

Yes, I want all living things to ever exist (including insects and microscopic organisms) to be given omniscience and omnipotence so that no one can harm them.

You may want that but would that really be a good idea?

1) Over one million species of insects have been discovered and described but it is estimated that there may be as many as 10 million species on earth.

2) There are approximately 1.4 billion insects for every person on Earth. The total weight of all the insects is about 70 times more than all the people.

Can you imagine what life would be like on earth if insects and all living creatures reproduced but none of them died. Would that not lead to immense suffering? Many microscopic organisms keep us healthy and enable the ecosystem to remain balanced, life would be very difficult,no impossible if they did not do their job and die when their natural life cycle was complete

As for omnipotence; can you imagine a swarm of omnipotent wasps that could not be killed? Seriously, can you not see that indescriminatly according omniscience and omnipotence to every living creature would not lead to a planet without harm but on the contrary, to about as much harm as le possible. If everybody and everything was omniscience and omnipotence, that would just make everyone equal not kind and if you accorded those capacity insects and ameoba ... you would end up with a planet as close to hell as possible could be.

If all living things were omniscient and omnipotent they would all have an infinite number of omniscient and omnipotent children and each living thing would own an infinite number of universes. No omniscient and omnipotent being can be harmed by anyone so no living thing would ever get harmed by anything living or non-living. They would all be forever happy in their infinite number of universes.

I want to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths but I can't. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. I want to be omniscient and omnipotent and want to make all living things omniscient and omnipotent but I can't. I want to own an infinite number of universes and donate an infinite number of universes to every living thing and want to travel everywhere across all universes without taking any time at all. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

I hate not having free will. I hate having a will that is constrained by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I want to exist without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. Tardigrades can exist without oxygen, water and food but I can't because I don't have their genes. I want to be fluent in all 7,151 languages of the world right now without ever having to learn them but I can't. I hate the prison that is my existence. I hate the fact that my every thought, sensory perception, word, emotion and action is determined by variables I did not choose. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust reality full of omnivores, carnivores, herbivores and parasites. All living things should live without consuming anything. Only an evil God would make living things that need to consume other non-living (air and water) and living things in order to live.

[JehovahsWitness]

. No omniscient and omnipotent being can be harmed by anyone so no living thing would ever get harmed by anything living or non-living. They would all be forever happy in their infinite number of universes.

Since when does power and knowledge lead to happiness? A pantheon of powerful beings isn't happiness, its a Greek tragedy waiting to happen. Without love all power is dangerous. A little less Homer and more scripture might be in order.



JW

[Athetotheist]

Yes, I want all living things to ever exist (including insects and microscopic organisms) to be given omniscience and omnipotence so that no one can harm them.

You may want that but would that really be a good idea?

1) Over one million species of insects have been discovered and described but it is estimated that there may be as many as 10 million species on earth.

2) There are approximately 1.4 billion insects for every person on Earth. The total weight of all the insects is about 70 times more than all the people.

Can you imagine what life would be like on earth if insects and all living creatures reproduced but none of them died. Would that not lead to immense suffering? Many microscopic organisms keep us healthy and enable the ecosystem to remain balanced, life would be very difficult,no impossible if they did not do their job and die when their natural life cycle was complete

As for omnipotence; can you imagine a swarm of omnipotent wasps that could not be killed? Seriously, can you not see that indescriminatly according omniscience and omnipotence to every living creature would not lead to a planet without harm but on the contrary, to about as much harm as le possible. If everybody and everything was omniscience and omnipotence, that would just make everyone equal not kind and if you accorded those capacity insects and ameoba ... you would end up with a planet as close to hell as possible could be.

If all living things were omniscient and omnipotent they would all have an infinite number of omniscient and omnipotent children and each living thing would own an infinite number of universes. No omniscient and omnipotent being can be harmed by anyone so no living thing would ever get harmed by anything living or non-living. They would all be forever happy in their infinite number of universes.

I want to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths but I can't. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. I want to be omniscient and omnipotent and want to make all living things omniscient and omnipotent but I can't. I want to own an infinite number of universes and donate an infinite number of universes to every living thing and want to travel everywhere across all universes without taking any time at all. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

I hate not having free will. I hate having a will that is constrained by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I want to exist without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. Tardigrades can exist without oxygen, water and food but I can't because I don't have their genes. I want to be fluent in all 7,151 languages of the world right now without ever having to learn them but I can't. I hate the prison that is my existence. I hate the fact that my every thought, sensory perception, word, emotion and action is determined by variables I did not choose. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust reality full of omnivores, carnivores, herbivores and parasites. All living things should live without consuming anything. Only an evil God would make living things that need to consume other non-living (air and water) and living things in order to live.

That's quite a list of requirements. Essentially, you want everything for nothing.

A "pragmatist" might look at all this and conclude that there can be no good in such a system, and that might be arguable if it were known that said system were all there is. That is not known and certainly need not be the case.

And consider: others constrained in the same nihilistic scenario you describe, and fully recognizing it as being the way it is, nontheless find their way to a far deeper peace with it. So while you argue that having no free will dooms you to take your gloomy outlook, others caught in the same circumstance manage to avoid the same conclusion.

[Compassionist]

Yes, I want all living things to ever exist (including insects and microscopic organisms) to be given omniscience and omnipotence so that no one can harm them.

You may want that but would that really be a good idea?

1) Over one million species of insects have been discovered and described but it is estimated that there may be as many as 10 million species on earth.

2) There are approximately 1.4 billion insects for every person on Earth. The total weight of all the insects is about 70 times more than all the people.

Can you imagine what life would be like on earth if insects and all living creatures reproduced but none of them died. Would that not lead to immense suffering? Many microscopic organisms keep us healthy and enable the ecosystem to remain balanced, life would be very difficult,no impossible if they did not do their job and die when their natural life cycle was complete

As for omnipotence; can you imagine a swarm of omnipotent wasps that could not be killed? Seriously, can you not see that indescriminatly according omniscience and omnipotence to every living creature would not lead to a planet without harm but on the contrary, to about as much harm as le possible. If everybody and everything was omniscience and omnipotence, that would just make everyone equal not kind and if you accorded those capacity insects and ameoba ... you would end up with a planet as close to hell as possible could be.

If all living things were omniscient and omnipotent they would all have an infinite number of omniscient and omnipotent children and each living thing would own an infinite number of universes. No omniscient and omnipotent being can be harmed by anyone so no living thing would ever get harmed by anything living or non-living. They would all be forever happy in their infinite number of universes.

I want to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths but I can't. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. I want to be omniscient and omnipotent and want to make all living things omniscient and omnipotent but I can't. I want to own an infinite number of universes and donate an infinite number of universes to every living thing and want to travel everywhere across all universes without taking any time at all. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

I hate not having free will. I hate having a will that is constrained by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I want to exist without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. Tardigrades can exist without oxygen, water and food but I can't because I don't have their genes. I want to be fluent in all 7,151 languages of the world right now without ever having to learn them but I can't. I hate the prison that is my existence. I hate the fact that my every thought, sensory perception, word, emotion and action is determined by variables I did not choose. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust reality full of omnivores, carnivores, herbivores and parasites. All living things should live without consuming anything. Only an evil God would make living things that need to consume other non-living (air and water) and living things in order to live.

That's quite a list of requirements. Essentially, you want everything for nothing.

A "pragmatist" might look at all this and conclude that there can be no good in such a system, and that might be arguable if it were known that said system were all there is. That is not known and certainly need not be the case.

And consider: others constrained in the same nihilistic scenario you describe, and fully recognizing it as being the way it is, nontheless find their way to a far deeper peace with it. So while you argue that having no free will dooms you to take your gloomy outlook, others caught in the same circumstance manage to avoid the same conclusion.

I have been suffering from PTSD since 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 1997 and Chronic Pain since 2008. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences you would be feeling the way I feel about my existence and if I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences I would be feeling the way you are feeling about your existence. As things stand, all living things are headed for death.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #57

I have been suffering from PTSD since 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 1997 and Chronic Pain since 2008. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences you would be feeling the way I feel about my existence and if I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences I would be feeling the way you are feeling about your existence. As things stand, all living things are headed for death.

I hope you're getting adequate treatment for your conditions. And while I'm not claiming that my lot has been as hard as yours, I've known my share of the dark side of life: a broken home, the childhood trauma of an alcoholic parent----which, believe me, cannot be overstated----, a deconversion experience from an organized religion which quite literally drove me to the brink of insanity....and more.

Out of all that, one thing I've learned is that you mustn't deify suffering. Denying it a place of omnipotence in the universe denies it omnipotence over your life, being that your life is more than your physical condition. Orwell wrote that in the face of pain there are no heroes and he may have been right, but even that doesn't leave pain to be all there is. It stands to reason that reality extends beyond our experience of it. When faced with uncertain possibilities, we can----by free will----assume the better of them for our own well-being.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #57

I have been suffering from PTSD since 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 1997 and Chronic Pain since 2008. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences you would be feeling the way I feel about my existence and if I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences I would be feeling the way you are feeling about your existence. As things stand, all living things are headed for death.

I hope you're getting adequate treatment for your conditions. And while I'm not claiming that my lot has been as hard as yours, I've known my share of the dark side of life: a broken home, the childhood trauma of an alcoholic parent----which, believe me, cannot be overstated----, a deconversion experience from an organized religion which quite literally drove me to the brink of insanity....and more.

Out of all that, one thing I've learned is that you mustn't deify suffering. Denying it a place of omnipotence in the universe denies it omnipotence over your life, being that your life is more than your physical condition. Orwell wrote that in the face of pain there are no heroes and he may have been right, but even that doesn't leave pain to be all there is. It stands to reason that reality extends beyond our experience of it. When faced with uncertain possibilities, we can----by free will----assume the better of them for our own well-being.

I am so sorry for all your suffering. I am glad that you have survived your troubles so far. No, I am not getting adequate treatment for my conditions. My conditions are complex and the treatments are imperfect, so I have to endure the symptoms and the side-effects of medications. I used to pray for divine healing but I don't anymore. I have given up on all the religions and all the gods. I am aware that life is not all negative, but the negative aspects outweigh the positive aspects of life. I have not deified suffering. I am aware of how common it is and wish it didn't exist.

You mentioned free will. Living things don't have free will.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Omniscience and omnipotence allow one a will that is free from all constraints and a will that is not determined by any variables. I have never met an entity that was all-knowing and all-powerful. So, the existence of such an entity is hypothetical.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is evil and real. If the Bible is false, then the Biblical God is evil and imaginary. Please see: https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com I disagree with you because life is full of suffering, injustice and deaths. 99.9% of all the species to exist so far on Earth are already extinct. Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

Out of the 125 billion humans who have been born so far 117.1 billion are already dead. The remaining 7.9 billion will also die.

[Compassionist]

. No omniscient and omnipotent being can be harmed by anyone so no living thing would ever get harmed by anything living or non-living. They would all be forever happy in their infinite number of universes.

Since when does power and knowledge lead to happiness? A pantheon of powerful beings isn't happiness, its a Greek tragedy waiting to happen. Without love all power is dangerous. A little less Homer and more scripture might be in order.



JW

I disagree. If all living things were omniscient and omnipotent no one would ever be harmed by anyone. The reason living things suffer and die is that they can't protect themselves from injury, illness, ageing and death. Omniscient and omnipotent beings can't be harmed by anyone and anything. If you are omniscient and omnipotent natural disasters, predators and diseases can't harm you.