Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

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Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #181

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:21 pm Exactly, assuming you are referring to a private debate. At least in a public debate, you can hope to show the flaws of the other position and/or correct the flaws in your own based on more varied feedback.

I'm not sure why some think a private conversation will be more convincing. We've seen this request in the past (I think from the same user). Some seem to keep forgetting that many of us used to hold their position so a private chat about where we used to be is hardly useful. In fact, even as a former Christian I would disagree with a great deal of what other Christian's and/or groups were going on about. It's not like a private chat is suddenly going to 'bring me to Jesus'. Unless of course that chat is with Jesus himself. Even then there would be some explaining to do :) Maybe now we have more information to answer why... I think it's because they do not want their flawed and/or faith-based thinking truly exposed in the wild?

If he really thought his arguments were sound, he would welcome them publicly; to convert more than just the person he is exchanging with... And yes, he should also know that a heated exchange usually does not get the opponent to convert :) Such exchanges are more-so useful for the ones watching or listening.
No need to "assume", because I specifically challenged him to an audio debate which would be POSTED to the forum for everyone to see..so you are simply WRONG here.

So practically everything you said was a waste of time because it was based on a false premise; Philosophy 101.
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:21 pm But I gave him a VERY EASY lay-up for conversion... One for which he failed miserably. It seems to always happen when you press a Christian's claims.

I asked him to pray for Jesus to contact me. And since Jesus has not, and likely will not --- operation failure.
Cool. So Jesus doesn't exist. There isn't much left to say after that point, is there? So please drive home safely and I wish you the best in this short, finite life.

:D
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #182

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 pm I should have more-so heeded your advice from post #94 above :( I wasted many exchanged with a fellow whom is quite indoctrinated and closed minded. When he boasted about his hero being Kent Hovind, I almost pooped my pants.
Yeah, Kent is my guy. Been destroying evolution/evolutionists for 3 decades.

Guess what, Kent Hovind: I don't like paying taxes either!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 pm In this day and age, I was not aware that anything he said was still relevant or taken seriously -- (even by fundamentalists)? There exists so many debunking videos, demonstrating why he is just flat wrong about so many of his claims. Heck, even many theists know this....
Irrelevant.

I just did a youtube search on "Richard Dawkins debunked" (one of the most prominent atheists/evolutionists/biologists in the world), and guess what? There are numerous videos of him being debunked/refuted/"owned".

So, your point here is moot...and virtuously every famous person with a voice on any particular subject has a video "debunking" them.

So please.
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 pm He then tried to even the playing field by telling me I'm indoctrinated too, in 'evolution'.
Yup, indoctrinated with the lie of evolution.
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 pm I have to wonder, does "Venom" not understand what evolutionary theory claims, or is he just in denial of the evidence based claims?
Here is what Venom understands...

1. Dogs produce dogs
2. Cats produce cats
3. Fish produce fish

That is science. That is what I understand, and will continue to understand until you can provide convincing evidence to the contrary, which you haven't, and can't.
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 pm I guess it's just a talking point really. In my estimation, it again boils down to:

1. indoctrination - It's very hard to shake. [
2. Ironically the topic for which he flat out rejects. The ones who apply (intentional agency) survived, while the many who did not, are long gone. We all apply (intentional agency) from time to time, where there is none. This is a type 1 error and is harmless. He is merely doing this with his 'god'. Meaning, if he's wrong, there is no way to verify and it is virtually harmless.

This is why he must reject any piece of 'science' which posses a threat. Like the aforementioned 4 minute video suggests.

And now, when he is pressed to demonstrate his beliefs too closely, about the ages of the earth, humans, and the flood, he then back peddles....

So yea, I'm glad I did not decide to take him up any a private exchange. And sure, I knew it would go nowhere. The point was for the rest of the audience to see what indoctrinated people do in a debate.
At the end of the day..

1. It is your salvation, not mines.

2. Dogs produce dogs.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #183

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:43 pm
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 pm Seems you want to remain in your current apprehension/inference. Thus, you do not really want to have your current conclusion pressed/challenged too much.
You are correct.

When I say "I don't know", or "I haven't looked into it yet", then no, I do not want my conclusion pressed...
Then I have to ask... What is your scientific background? Meaning, did you at least take evolutionary biology, astronomy, geology, etc? And if so, were these schools accredited? And if so, even though you do not agree with the evidence/claims, did you at least demonstrate an understanding about what these courses taught?

Case/point: When I was in college, taking an astronomy class, I sat next to a fellow student who took the class as well, got an A, and then told the teacher she was a YEC. Meaning, she understood what the class taught, got the answer questions right, but did not agree. Is this you? Do you truly understand what the courses taught, but disagree?
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #184

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:54 pm
POI wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:21 pm But I gave him a VERY EASY lay-up for conversion... One for which he failed miserably. It seems to always happen when you press a Christian's claims.

I asked him to pray for Jesus to contact me. And since Jesus has not, and likely will not --- operation failure.
Cool. So Jesus doesn't exist. There isn't much left to say after that point, is there? So please drive home safely and I wish you the best in this short, finite life.

:D
Well, I'd rather assess the truth, then to fool myself. So I ask... Is my logic sound about Christianity, as it relates to prayer? If not, why not? I'd like to know?
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #185

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:05 pm Here is what Venom understands...

1. Dogs produce dogs
2. Cats produce cats
3. Fish produce fish

That is science. That is what I understand, and will continue to understand until you can provide convincing evidence to the contrary, which you haven't, and can't.
Well, I haven't tried to provide evidence to the contrary. Heck, I have not tried to justify evolution at all, quite frankly.

My only focus is to try and get you to commit to a timeline with earth, humans, and the flood --- as it relates to Genesis. But you do not want to.

So let's try another approach...

Do you think God made all creation in 6 literal days, or not?

If so, then explain the gap between dinosaurs and humans?

If no, then explain how dinosaurs and humans lived together, as it relates to the fossil record?
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #186

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:14 am Well, I haven't tried to provide evidence to the contrary. Heck, I have not tried to justify evolution at all, quite frankly.
Understood. I was just generally mentioning the fun fact of your inability to do so, that's all.
My only focus is to try and get you to commit to a timeline with earth, humans, and the flood --- as it relates to Genesis. But you do not want to.
Disingenuous...because my timeline is actually the point of contention, according to you.

So apparently, I've committed enough to a timeline, of which allows you to probe/pry your way through page after page on this thread as you continue to hound me on the very timeline that I've been committed to.
So let's try another approach...
Lets not.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #187

Post by TRANSPONDER »

It's remarkable that, no matter the topic, we seem to end up exchanging barbs about evolution. I really have to essay a new tactic, like the one I keep sewn in my belt for use in the Cosmic Origins debate:

"Ok, suppose I take it that Evolution theory is wrong, so what?"

"Well obviously, you have to recite the Sinners' prayer and take Jesus into your heart!"

"Hang on...".

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #188

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:28 am Understood. I was just generally mentioning the fun fact of your inability to do so, that's all.
Judging from your many responses, my "inability to do so" looks to be demonstrated by your unwillingness to explore virtually anything outside the scope of your <current> knowledge base -- (whatever that may be). So, as I stated prior, seems you wish to preserve your <current> view, to protect this view from any new apprehended/inferred information -- which might then instead force your hand in then questioning/changing your current conclusion. I think I have a hunch why... You view all these topics, like evolution, as the work of the devil and fundamentally close your ears to what the evidence/claims suggest. So you are better off just telling me "no thanks".

I ask you again, unanswered.... What is your scientific background? Meaning, did you at least take evolutionary biology course(s) and at least understand exactly what was being taught? The reason I ask is that the curriculum is the same, whether you go to a community college in a small town, and an ivy league school somewhere. The fundamentals are the same. Are you at least aware of what these fundamentals teach in their entirety? Or maybe you have not taken a formal course, and know exactly what the fundamentals teach anyways?

On the contrary, Bible teaching is not the same, from school to school. Some will teach a literal translation, and others don't. Heck, even if you are to take a hermeneutics course, you might have 2 theologians/professors translate Genesis differently. This is a fundamental problem.

(YOU) Disingenuous...because my timeline is actually the point of contention, according to you.

So apparently, I've committed enough to a timeline, of which allows you to probe/pry your way through page after page on this thread as you continue to hound me on the very timeline that I've been committed to.

(ME) I think you misunderstood my reply :) I know you gave a timeline (100K - 1M). I'm asking how you got there, and how that timeline could possibly correlate with Genesis? This is where you shut down; pleading that you have not done the work to investigate.

I'm merely asking you to take this basic journey with me. And it seems you do not want to because you might be afraid of what this journey may reveal.

(YOU) Lets not.

(ME) Unlike you, I'm asking you to demonstrate the error in my logic. I say the Bible is wrong, as it relates to prayer. I want you to demonstrate why my view of the Bible being wrong, is an incorrect view. But instead, you tell me to have a nice day.

If you really want to save someone, I see this response as 'disingenuous'. So let's try this again:

- Jesus answers petitionary prayers
- Jesus answers intercessory prayers
- Jesus has not answered my petitionary prayers for contacting me
- Jesus has not and will not answer your intercessory prayers to contact me
- If Jesus's answer is (no), then prayer is pointless; as answered prayer only happens if it already aligns with Jesus's will.
- I'm not asking Jesus for something <crazy>. I'm asking Him to communicate with me so I know He exists. In which case, I may THEN be along side of you --- (fighting the good fight).
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #189

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:06 am It's remarkable that, no matter the topic, we seem to end up exchanging barbs about evolution. I really have to essay a new tactic, like the one I keep sewn in my belt for use in the Cosmic Origins debate:

"Ok, suppose I take it that Evolution theory is wrong, so what?"

"Well obviously, you have to recite the Sinners' prayer and take Jesus into your heart!"

"Hang on...".
People like 'Venom' see evolution as the "Devil's" way of deceiving us. This is why he attacks it, at every turn.

But as I've told him, more than once, let's play devil's advocate and assume evolution is false. My logic and morals would still reject Christianity practically all-the-same.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #190

Post by brunumb »

POI wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:06 am It's remarkable that, no matter the topic, we seem to end up exchanging barbs about evolution. I really have to essay a new tactic, like the one I keep sewn in my belt for use in the Cosmic Origins debate:

"Ok, suppose I take it that Evolution theory is wrong, so what?"

"Well obviously, you have to recite the Sinners' prayer and take Jesus into your heart!"

"Hang on...".
People like 'Venom' see evolution as the "Devil's" way of deceiving us. This is why he attacks it, at every turn.

But as I've told him, more than once, let's play devil's advocate and assume evolution is false. My logic and morals would still reject Christianity practically all-the-same.
I think that there are many creationists who know deep down that evolution is true but they cannot tackle it head on in debates because it would threaten their beliefs. The best they can do is simply deny it and present falsehoods or cute little sound bites that ultimately amount to nothing in real terms. For them, the devil is in the details. ;)
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