Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

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Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #211

Post by Diogenes »

historia wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:07 pm The belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law is not derived from observation. It cannot be "validated" by science.

You can invent post-hoc rationalizations for it, to be sure. But the real reason you and I think that idea is true is because we grew up in societies influenced by Christianity, were "indoctrinated" into that idea as children by our parents, and have had it reinforced by numerous social institutions.
I don't recall anyone claiming that equality is something that can be validated by science. But you are completely wrong in speaking for me and in your assessment of history as well as Christianity. Although you can and did "invent post-hoc rationalizations for" Christianity supporting equality, the reverse is true.

You are wrong both historically and Biblically and even a venerated Catholic institution tells us so

Both Old and New Testaments are strewn with anti democratic, anti equality examples, from slavery to
inequality of women.
Our concept and belief in equality comes from Greece.
The ideas of democracy, justice, and equality were central to political thought in ancient Greece and remain so for us today.
https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/democracy-j ... spectives/

I believe in moral equality under the law in spite of, not because of Christianity.
For many centuries slavery was perfectly acceptable to Christians. Christians had no doubt that it was divinely sanctioned, and they used a number of Old and New Testament quotations to prove their case. Looking at the relevant passages it is clear that the Bible does indeed endorse slavery. In the Old Testament God approved the practice and laid down rules for buyers and sellers (Exodus 21:1-11, Leviticus 25:44). Men are at liberty to sell their own daughters (Exodus 21:7). Slaves can be inherited (Leviticus 25:45-6). It is acceptable to beat slaves, since they are property — a master who beats his slave to death is not to be punished as long as the slave stays alive for a day or two, as the loss of the master's property is punishment enough:

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Exodus 21:20-21
https://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.co ... lavery.htm

Early Christianity:
In pre-Christian times and in non-Christian countries people expressed doubts about slavery and sought to improve the lot of slaves — the Stoic philosophers provide a notable example. In pagan times slaves who escaped and sought sanctuary at a holy temple would not be returned to their masters if they had a justifiable complaint. When the Empire became Christian, escaped slaves could seek refuge in a church, but they would always be returned to their masters, whether they had a justifiable complaint or not. When Christian slaves in the early Asian Church suggested that community funds might be used to purchase their freedom, they were soon disabused of their hopes, a line supported by one of the greatest Church Fathers (Ignatius of Antioch.). He declared that their ambition should be to become better slaves, and they should not expect the Church to gain their liberty for them. His orthodox approach followed the words of St Paul: "Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so." (1 Corinthians 7:20-21 NIV).
ibid
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #212

Post by TRANSPONDER »

historia wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:21 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:29 am
I was going to observe that understanding the way society and social dissemination of information (including morals) is done is something we can understand
Good, then you should understand that all of us hold moral, ethical, and political beliefs that have been handed down to us from our parents.

And yet some people in this thread seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that parents should only pass onto their children scientifically-validated facts about the world. In their rush to criticize religious beliefs, they've seemingly forgotten about the deeply-held cultural beliefs that they themselves hold, some of which, ironically, are ultimately derived from religion.
That would be much better, if parents (not to mention other bodies that take it upon themselves to indo...instruct children, passed on scientifically -validated information. But they usually pass on their own opinions. I can only say that secular humanistsare hopefully going to pass on views that have the backing of science, religion, sadly, too often prefers to pass on opinions that are in disagreement with science.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:29 am
It sounds like the usual Theist fallacy that the claims of science are no more valid than the claims of religion
historia wrote -, that's a straw man argument.
:D I know it is, but nevertheless It is one often made by religious apologists. And I could be wrong but it looked like it was being made there. Shall we look at it again?

#208 "Right, so ideas that you like -- e.g., the belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are cool with.

While ideas that you don't like -- e.g., the existence of angels -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are not cool with."


Considering that 'angels' is a supernatural claim and the other side is atheist/materialist/humanist and therefore based on science rather than anything else, and setting aside the bias accusation (like the religious advocates didn't have bias) it looks like saying that the supernatural claims are as good as the science -based claims. How is that a strawman of what you actually meant? Bear in mind that even if the secularists pass on what they have been told, that is still science -based rather than supernatural claims.

I think you are too sound to try science denial ;)

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #213

Post by brunumb »

historia wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:21 pm And yet some people in this thread seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that parents should only pass onto their children scientifically-validated facts about the world.
It wouldn't matter if they were passing on religiously validated facts. But they are passing on beliefs as facts. That's the issue.
historia wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:21 pm In their rush to criticize religious beliefs, they've seemingly forgotten about the deeply-held cultural beliefs that they themselves hold, some of which, ironically, are ultimately derived from religion.
It didn't matter when the Spanish invaded South America and crushed local religious and cultural beliefs while imposing Christianity at the point of a sword.

[sp]
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #214

Post by oldbadger »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:04 pm
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'
Around here....... yes. I don't know a Christian in this area, they are all 'tick-box' Christians who might attend weddings, funerals and baptisms, but that's about it. They were brought up in a semi-Christian society.
That's happening to younger Muslims as well imo. I have known many Muslims whose main objective was to wear smart clothes, drive a snazzy motor, be with a darling girlfriend and look cool. Don't blame 'em. :)
Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
Do you think a higher intellect is sure to have the common sense to know what is true, and what not?
Religious choice (or not) is for everybody and that includes the whole range of IQ abilities. The high IQs sometimes show me the least common sense and no more contentment than any others.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #215

Post by historia »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:03 pm
historia wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:21 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:29 am
It sounds like the usual Theist fallacy that the claims of science are no more valid than the claims of religion
Nope, that's a straw man argument.
:D I know it is, but nevertheless It is one often made by religious apologists. And I could be wrong but it looked like it was being made there. Shall we look at it again?
By all means.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:03 pm
historia wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:08 pm
Right, so ideas that you like -- e.g., the belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are cool with.

While ideas that you don't like -- e.g., the existence of angels -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are not cool with.
Considering that 'angels' is a supernatural claim and the other side is atheist/materialist/humanist and therefore based on science rather than anything else, and setting aside the bias accusation (like the religious advocates didn't have bias) it looks like saying that the supernatural claims are as good as the science -based claims. How is that a strawman of what you actually meant?
It's a straw man for two reasons:

First, I'm making no assertion here as to the respective merit of these ideas, so your characterization of my argument as indicating that one idea is as "as good as" the other is mistaken.

Second, neither of those two ideas is a "science-based claim."
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:03 pm
Considering that 'angels' is a supernatural claim and the other side is atheist/materialist/humanist and therefore based on science rather than anything else . . . .
No, this is where you -- and perhaps others here -- are making an unfounded assumption.

The world of ideas cannot be divided into just two categories -- claims about the supernatural on the one hand and "science-based" claims on the other -- as you seem to imagine.

Instead, as is quite evident, there are numerous ethical, philosophical, and political ideas that are neither about the supernatural nor grounded in science. The belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law is one of those.

The overarching point I'm making here is that both religious and non-religious parents pass ideas that are not based in science or observation to their children, and in roughly the same way. And those idea are effectively -- even if unintentionally -- accepted as true facts about the world by their children.

And yet, some participants here are objecting to this process -- not the ideas themselves, mind you, but the process by which the ideas are conferred to children -- only when it involves religious parents, thus making their argument a case of special pleading.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #216

Post by TRANSPONDER »

You haven't thought this through. The materialist/naturalist -based 'claim' is science as it is. All of it. It investigates all the world we can see and know and how it works. No god found. That is as science -based as you can get.

The god - claim is backed up by nothing concrete. the various ID claims are either wrong or leave 'don't know' as the default, not 'must be a god'. You have no case for the supernatural because if it was validated by science, ir would become natural and cease to be super-natural.

Now, I showed that you were equating the two claims, but if you are going to say that you didn't and one was 'not as good' as the other, fine. I'll take it.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #217

Post by Diogenes »

historia wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm Second, neither of those two ideas is a "science-based claim."

The world of ideas cannot be divided into just two categories -- claims about the supernatural on the one hand and "science-based" claims on the other -- as you seem to imagine.

Instead, as is quite evident, there are numerous ethical, philosophical, and political ideas that are neither about the supernatural nor grounded in science. The belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law is one of those.

The overarching point I'm making here is that both religious and non-religious parents pass ideas that are not based in science or observation to their children, and in roughly the same way. And those idea are effectively -- even if unintentionally -- accepted as true facts about the world by their children.

And yet, some participants here are objecting to this process -- not the ideas themselves, mind you, but the process by which the ideas are conferred to children -- only when it involves religious parents, thus making their argument a case of special pleading.
This glosses over the fact that we can indeed make a major epistemological distinction:

Between objective facts that can be directly observed with the senses (science), and those that cannot, that are wholly subjective (religious, spiritual, feelings, opinions). Facts or claims in the first category are falsifiable. Those in the second are not.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #218

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Although you can and did "invent post-hoc rationalizations for" Christianity supporting equality, the reverse is true.
Let's be clear: My claim was that you and I think the idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law is true because we grew up in societies influenced by Christianity.

Since this is a philosophical concept, it would be good for us to first look at what philosophers themselves have to say on this point. The Stanford Encyclopedia on Philosophy article on egalitarianism provides the mainstream view:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:
Egalitarian doctrines tend to rest on a background idea that all human persons are equal in fundamental worth or moral status. So far as the Western European and Anglo-American philosophical tradition is concerned, one significant source of this thought is the Christian notion that God loves all human souls equally.
In other words, Christianity had a major influence in shaping this idea, as I said.

But you have doubts because:
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Both Old and New Testaments are strewn with anti democratic, anti equality examples, from slavery to inequality of women.
This objection misunderstands the claim being made. Nobody is suggesting that modern conceptions of democracy or belief in the equality of women spring fully-formed from the first pages of Genesis.

Rather, what historians have long recognized is that the belief that all people are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and the belief that all are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28) had a powerful impact on Christian thought. Later Christian authors, including Augustine and Aquinas, developed these nascent ideas in the Bible into important and influential legal concepts that have influenced our idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law.

Christianity is more than just the Bible.
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Our concept and belief in equality comes from Greece.
Greek philosophy certainly played an important part in the development of our notions of democracy and equality. But the specific idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law has more to do with the influence of Christianity.

In Equality and Non-Discrimination Under International Law (2017), Jarlath Clifford, an international lawyer, explains this succinctly:
Clifford wrote:
This basic human rights principle is absent from Greek thinking, which envisaged equality between citizens of the state, but not between citizens and non-citizens. Indeed, the idea of equality was applied differently to different people, depending on their political status.

The idea of universal citizenship, a concept with which international human rights law and contemporary constitutions struggle today, was absent form classical Greek philosophy.

Universalism was critical to Christian thinking on equality. St. Thomas Aquinas emphasized an approach to equality that united everyone under God's direction in a common bond of happiness. Aquinas' concept of divine law commanded that all unite in mutual love of God.

Thus, in contrast to Greek philosophers who limited the application of the principle of equality to members of set democratic orders, Aquinas presupposed that by divine design and law the principle of equality applied to everyone.
Indeed, the book review you cited above to support the contention that our "belief in equality comes from Greece" notes that the Greeks also held problematic views on the very issues you raised above for the Bible:
Riesbeck wrote:
Of course, Aristotle infamously limits the scope of the happiness and virtue at which his ideal constitutions aim, endorsing slavery, excluding or marginalizing manual laborers and merchants, neglecting resident aliens, and denying citizenship to women.
According to your argument, the presence of these ideas would exclude Greek philosophy from being the source of our belief in equality as well.

But, in fact, we should discard this misguided objection altogether, and recognize that ideas take time to develop. Nevertheless, the ultimate source of our ideas are not hard to see, as the popular historian Tom Holland (himself an atheist) points out in Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World (2019):
Holland wrote:
That every human being possessed an equal dignity was not remotely self-evident a truth. A Roman would have laughed at it.

To campaign against discrimination on the grounds of gender or sexuality, however, was to depend on large numbers of people sharing in a common assumption: that everyone possessed an inherent worth.

The origins of this principle -- as Neitzsche had so contemptuously pointed out -- lay not in the French Revolution, nor in the Declaration of Independence, nor in the Enlightenment, but in the Bible.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #219

Post by TRANSPONDER »

historia wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I wrote:..
:D I know it is, but nevertheless It is one often made by religious apologists. And I could be wrong but it looked like it was being made there. Shall we look at it again?
And you invited: By all means.

So what I argued before: -
historia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:08 pm
Right, so ideas that you like -- e.g., the belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are cool with.

While ideas that you don't like -- e.g., the existence of angels -- that have come down to us via "childhood indoctrination, not facts, logic" you are not cool with.

If we factor out the common denominator in those two cases, then your actual argument here is simply that there are some ideas you like and some ideas you don't like.
Now, human moral codes are a red herring. They are neither supernatural nor 'science'. It is as irrelevant to your argument as dragging art or poetry into it (1). It is a simple comparison of 'angels' as an example of a supernatural claim, contrasted with 'science' or natural/ material claims which, as I explained before is everythng we know, shown to work without a god or any other supernatural mechanism.

The supernatural and the natural are not equally valid claims (that is, evaluated by what one likes or doesn't like).

(1) though is one did, it would have the default of being 'natural' - that is, invented by humans out of their Natural brains and the 'supernatural' having nothing to do with it, unless such input can be validated.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #220

Post by TRANSPONDER »

historia wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Although you can and did "invent post-hoc rationalizations for" Christianity supporting equality, the reverse is true.
Let's be clear: My claim was that you and I think the idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law is true because we grew up in societies influenced by Christianity.

Since this is a philosophical concept, it would be good for us to first look at what philosophers themselves have to say on this point. The Stanford Encyclopedia on Philosophy article on egalitarianism provides the mainstream view:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:
Egalitarian doctrines tend to rest on a background idea that all human persons are equal in fundamental worth or moral status. So far as the Western European and Anglo-American philosophical tradition is concerned, one significant source of this thought is the Christian notion that God loves all human souls equally.
In other words, Christianity had a major influence in shaping this idea, as I said.

But you have doubts because:
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Both Old and New Testaments are strewn with anti democratic, anti equality examples, from slavery to inequality of women.
This objection misunderstands the claim being made. Nobody is suggesting that modern conceptions of democracy or belief in the equality of women spring fully-formed from the first pages of Genesis.

Rather, what historians have long recognized is that the belief that all people are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and the belief that all are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28) had a powerful impact on Christian thought. Later Christian authors, including Augustine and Aquinas, developed these nascent ideas in the Bible into important and influential legal concepts that have influenced our idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law.

Christianity is more than just the Bible.
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:38 pm
Our concept and belief in equality comes from Greece.
Greek philosophy certainly played an important part in the development of our notions of democracy and equality. But the specific idea that all people have equal moral worth under the law has more to do with the influence of Christianity.

In Equality and Non-Discrimination Under International Law (2017), Jarlath Clifford, an international lawyer, explains this succinctly:
Clifford wrote:
This basic human rights principle is absent from Greek thinking, which envisaged equality between citizens of the state, but not between citizens and non-citizens. Indeed, the idea of equality was applied differently to different people, depending on their political status.

The idea of universal citizenship, a concept with which international human rights law and contemporary constitutions struggle today, was absent form classical Greek philosophy.

Universalism was critical to Christian thinking on equality. St. Thomas Aquinas emphasized an approach to equality that united everyone under God's direction in a common bond of happiness. Aquinas' concept of divine law commanded that all unite in mutual love of God.

Thus, in contrast to Greek philosophers who limited the application of the principle of equality to members of set democratic orders, Aquinas presupposed that by divine design and law the principle of equality applied to everyone.
Indeed, the book review you cited above to support the contention that our "belief in equality comes from Greece" notes that the Greeks also held problematic views on the very issues you raised above for the Bible:
Riesbeck wrote:
Of course, Aristotle infamously limits the scope of the happiness and virtue at which his ideal constitutions aim, endorsing slavery, excluding or marginalizing manual laborers and merchants, neglecting resident aliens, and denying citizenship to women.
According to your argument, the presence of these ideas would exclude Greek philosophy from being the source of our belief in equality as well.

But, in fact, we should discard this misguided objection altogether, and recognize that ideas take time to develop. Nevertheless, the ultimate source of our ideas are not hard to see, as the popular historian Tom Holland (himself an atheist) points out in Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World (2019):
Holland wrote:
That every human being possessed an equal dignity was not remotely self-evident a truth. A Roman would have laughed at it.

To campaign against discrimination on the grounds of gender or sexuality, however, was to depend on large numbers of people sharing in a common assumption: that everyone possessed an inherent worth.

The origins of this principle -- as Neitzsche had so contemptuously pointed out -- lay not in the French Revolution, nor in the Declaration of Independence, nor in the Enlightenment, but in the Bible.
Very well argued, but wrong. Wrong in that, while one could argue that, so far as Christian doctrine was concerned, the slave has as much chance of being saved as their master, they were still a slave in society. And from what i read, Byzantium (not Real Christians, no doubt) had a huge slave population. Nobles and helots were the rule in a very stratified Christian society, and (despite what Stanford says (1) I see the eighteenth century as the first time slavery was regarded as unacceptable, and it was the enlightenment and (it has to be said) the french revolution and not the Bible nor Christianity that promulgated such ideas. Though I'd be the first to agree that such ideas did not always turn out as well as anticipated.

But that is also true of Christianity in practice. rather it has been the anchor on which resistance to social progress has been based, and still is, and very visibly so. It is secular humanism, rather, that has led and is leading the way on matters of equality and Christianity is dragging it's heels as much as it can.

(1) for what it's worth - I read their article on atheism and it was a disgrace.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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