Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

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Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #191

Post by Diogenes »

Before this subtopic got hijacked by the anti-science - anti evolution crowd...

According to the OP this debate was supposed to be about people becoming Christians primarily because of childhood teaching (Let's not get wrapped up again in the tangents inspired by words like "indoctrination" or "abuse."

NO ONE has countered the stats from the OP:
In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14
.

In general Christians become Christian because, and only because they were taught, inculcated, exposed to or otherwise bamboozled ;) into that faith during their formative years when they were relatively defenseless to scams, fairydust, tall tales, propaganda, and the general repertoire of slick talking salesmen and televangelists.

The point is that in general people do not become Christians (or join any other faith) because it is 'the truth,' logical, fact based, or for any other rational reason. No, they do so because of childhood 'teaching.' Then they use reason (sort of) to defend the childhood decision.

One additional point (or concession :( ):
In addition to making the decision during one's immaturity, in the U.S. at least our culture is predominantly Christian. It is hard to escape. People like to conform. It takes strength to swim against the tide.

More data:
Image

Most people come to their religion, not by choice, but by accident of birth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country

Many countries tend to be 90% Christian or Muslim or whatever. It is not truth, but custom, culture, and if you will, "indoctrination" or something similar that determines one's faith. One might even say, considering atheists are in the considerable minority, that non believers represent strength and independence of mind, vs mere conformity.
Last edited by Diogenes on Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #192

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:05 pm
POI wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:06 am It's remarkable that, no matter the topic, we seem to end up exchanging barbs about evolution. I really have to essay a new tactic, like the one I keep sewn in my belt for use in the Cosmic Origins debate:

"Ok, suppose I take it that Evolution theory is wrong, so what?"

"Well obviously, you have to recite the Sinners' prayer and take Jesus into your heart!"

"Hang on...".
People like 'Venom' see evolution as the "Devil's" way of deceiving us. This is why he attacks it, at every turn.

But as I've told him, more than once, let's play devil's advocate and assume evolution is false. My logic and morals would still reject Christianity practically all-the-same.
I think that there are many creationists who know deep down that evolution is true but they cannot tackle it head on in debates because it would threaten their beliefs. The best they can do is simply deny it and present falsehoods or cute little sound bites that ultimately amount to nothing in real terms. For them, the devil is in the details. ;)
That gets us back on topic really. But we know the answer - people generally get brought up in the religion they were taught. Though conversion is not uncommon. That said, it doesn't matter so much as ensuring that what they are being indoctrinated into is true. It's because of the evidence. Faith is never a valid reason for believing anything, even though there is this backup doctrine that you must believe on faith and merely believing on good evidence damages your grace, which doesn't stop Christians arguing on the evidence. But I suppose that's ok because it's not why they believe. They believe on Faith even if various apologetics were used to persuade them into it. I reckon this because evidence is used for denial, not discovery, as the idea is not to find the best case, but to deny it. I saw that with the repeated 'Dogs don't come from cats' mantra which is not evidentai but denialist as this is not what evolution is.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #193

Post by otseng »

Moderator Intervention

Please cease from the debates on creation/evolution in this thread. If you want to continue it, please create another thread.


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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #194

Post by Diogenes »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm Before this subtopic got hijacked by the anti-science - anti evolution crowd...
[edit: ... and to be fair, the inevitable responses of science minded evolution minded folk...]
According to the OP this debate was supposed to be about people becoming Christians primarily because of childhood teaching (Let's not get wrapped up again in the tangents inspired by words like "indoctrination" or "abuse."

NO ONE has countered the stats from the OP:
In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14
.

In general Christians become Christian because, and only because they were taught, inculcated, exposed to or otherwise bamboozled ;) into that faith during their formative years when they were relatively defenseless to scams, fairydust, tall tales, propaganda, and the general repertoire of slick talking salesmen and televangelists.

The point is that in general people do not become Christians (or join any other faith) because it is 'the truth,' logical, fact based, or for any other rational reason. No, they do so because of childhood 'teaching.' Then they use reason (sort of) to defend the childhood decision.

One additional point (or concession :( ):
In addition to making the decision during one's immaturity, in the U.S. at least our culture is predominantly Christian. It is hard to escape. People like to conform. It takes strength to swim against the tide.

More data:
Image

Most people come to their religion, not by choice, but by accident of birth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country

Many countries tend to be 90% Christian or Muslim or whatever. It is not truth, but custom, culture, and if you will, "indoctrination" or something similar that determines one's faith. One might even say, considering atheists are in the considerable minority, that non believers represent strength and independence of mind, vs mere conformity.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #195

Post by TRANSPONDER »

It's remarkable how religions tend to coincide with conquest or at least political influence.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #196

Post by Diogenes »

I take a small measure of pride in being one of those who was raised as a Christian evangelical. My grandfather was an evangelist, my father a pillar of the church and active in a church college, my mother was a Lutheran. I had two uncles who pastored evangelical churches. I was a missionary for two years after graduating from a small evangelical college.
Although I always had an internal debate about the existence of God, it may have been those missionary years that fueled the final break. I read. I studied. The more I learned the more I saw the hopelessness of the Christian orthodox view.

I am not alone in this journey.
Dan Barker,
Javier Bardem,
Ingmar Bergman,
Dan Brown
Marie Curie
Jerry DeWitt . . . .
... the list is long and I am proud to be an insignificant part of it.
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #197

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:40 am I take a small measure of pride in being one of those who was raised as a Christian evangelical. My grandfather was an evangelist, my father a pillar of the church and active in a church college, my mother was a Lutheran. I had two uncles who pastored evangelical churches. I was a missionary for two years after graduating from a small evangelical college.
Although I always had an internal debate about the existence of God, it may have been those missionary years that fueled the final break. I read. I studied. The more I learned the more I saw the hopelessness of the Christian orthodox view.

I am not alone in this journey.
Dan Barker,
Javier Bardem,
Ingmar Bergman,
Dan Brown
Marie Curie
Jerry DeWitt . . . .
... the list is long and I am proud to be an insignificant part of it.
Right from the start of internet apologetics, I found deconversion stories revealing and often inspiring. So often it was study, very often with a view to verifying Faith before taking it to skeptics. And it so often collapsed. This is why the debate is over and done. Consideration of the evidence undercuts the case for God, the Bible and Christianity. Propping up Faith in those things requires denial, dismissal or misrepresentation. We have seen plenty of examples with demands for the evidence that Genesis is wrong to be presented. After all this time? Repeated attempts to evade the conclusion that the gospels put the Passover feast on different occasions. A recent attempt to present the argument from Morality yet again.

Sure, nobody can know all the arguments, but it is hard to avoid the feeling that the answers to the apologetics are forgotten and same old arguments get put, time and again. Not to mention shifting from one answered objection to 'well, explain this then' until finally we get back to good old 'Well, who made everything, then?'t

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #198

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm
In general Christians become Christian because . . . they were taught . . . that faith during their formative years
Sure, no one doubts this. And, as has been pointed out above, the same is true of the religiously unaffiliated. In general, they were raised that way by their parents. Which is why your point here is not really contentious so much as it is vacuous.
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm
Many countries tend to be 90% Christian or Muslim or whatever. It is not truth, but custom, culture, and if you will, "indoctrination" or something similar that determines one's faith.
Here, too, the same holds for the religiously unaffiliated. Most religiously unaffiliated people live in countries where they are in the majority. In fact, those percentages are nearly identical to those of Muslims living in Muslim-majority countries, and not far off those of Christians living in Christian-majority countries.
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm
One might even say, considering atheists are in the considerable minority, that non believers represent strength and independence of mind, vs mere conformity.
You might want to broaden your view point before saying that, though.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #199

Post by Diogenes »

historia wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:04 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm
In general Christians become Christian because . . . they were taught . . . that faith during their formative years
Sure, no one doubts this. And, as has been pointed out above, the same is true of the religiously unaffiliated. In general, they were raised that way by their parents. Which is why your point here is not really contentious so much as it is vacuous.
No surprise here that you would not understand, or would purposely avoid the more important implications. We have thousands of posts here by theists who desperately and continually try to make the case that their faith is valid because it is true. They try to defend the indefensible, that God impregnated a woman and she gave birth (while remaining a 'virgin' :D ) to a god who then was murdered according to his "Father's" divine plan so the murderers and all the other sinners could be "saved."

The point which you obtusely refuse (are unable?) to get, is that this preposterous nonsense is defended simply because it was taught, largely through early childhood indoctrination (not to mention getting hit,* and worse,# by nuns). They believe not because of logic or truth, but because they cling to a childhood hope regardless of the mountain of facts against what is absurd on its face.

Then, having nothing else to argue to support your confirmation bias, you are reduced to offering insults, vacuously. ;)

*
But the conversations inevitably turn to a decidedly less charming subject—getting smacked by nuns.
https://www.newsweek.com/what-catholic- ... ence-77657
#
“She would take me to her office, lock the door, and then draw the curtains. After which she would put me on her knees to make me read the gospel according to Saint Paul or another saint, while she squeezed me with one hand to her chest and pulled down my panties with the other hand.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/nuns-rape ... the-church
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #200

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:35 pm
The point which you obtusely refuse (are unable?) to get, is that this preposterous nonsense is defended simply because it was taught
So is the belief that all people have equal moral worth under the law. Does that, in itself, make it wrong?

Many of the most deeply held beliefs people (religious or not) hold are ideas they've been taught, especially in their youth. So attacking an idea on the grounds that it has been taught to children amounts to special pleading.

As I mentioned above, it seems to me your concern here is not really about kids being taught ideas, but rather the fact that there are certain ideas you don't like.

In which case, you should just critique the ideas you don't like directly, instead of via this sideways argument involving superfluous statistics, inflammatory language, and naive notions of parenting.
Diogenes wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:35 pm
Then, having nothing else to argue to support your confirmation bias, you are reduced to offering insults, vacuously. ;)
I'm not sure what "confirmation bias" you think I have. But critiquing an argument (even harshly) is not "offering insults."

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