Marriage Violations?

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POI
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Marriage Violations?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Current hypothesis, prior to provided clarification:

I say the Bible was written by men, and men alone. If this is the case, then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales.

***************************************************************

For debate: When A believer reads the following passage, how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'? (i.e.):

Deut. 22:13-29

Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #31

Post by POI »

brunumb wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:22 am [Replying to POI in post #28]

They must have had a quick and sure-fire method of checking virginity back then as evidenced by the Bible:

Numbers 31 (KJV):
"17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
You took the words out of my mouth :) I was going to point that out eventually. In this passage, I would reckon to speculate that such a "command" was code for.... "keep the pretty young ones for your pleasure."
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?

This was of course possible but such would have been the exception rather than the rule. There is no reason for an anomalie to undermine law as long as there is a recourse for such cases.
For more on what would be done in these cases see : What about girls that were the exceptionel the rule and did not bleed when losing their virginity?
viewtopic.php?p=1081228#p1081228



NONSEXUAL ACTIVITIES



The extremely modest religious society of ancient Israel, where girls were mostly kept segregated and veiled in public, the notion of a teenage girl climbing trees where anyone could look up under her robe, is far fetched to say the very least. As for going swimming unaccompanied (and unchaperoneed) even further. If she was accompanied she would again have witnesses of her activities and at least a plausible explanation'for her lack of bleeding as a bride.

It would be unlikely a very small child would not be away from her mother's (or Guardians) sight for any length of time and certainly not far away enough for an accident to go unwitnesses and unreported. If small girls in the natural course of play habitually broke their own hymen engaging in everyday activities the ritual of bloodsheet virginity would not have developed in the first place.





JW


RELATED POSTS

Why did the bible authorize bloodsheet testimony?
viewtopic.php?p=1081153#p1081153

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:06 pm, edited 15 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #33

Post by benchwarmer »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:35 am If she was accompanied she would again have witnesses of her activities and at least a plausible explanation'for her lack of bleeding as a bride.

It would be unlikely a very small child would not be away from her mother's (or Guardians) sight for any length of time and certainly not far away enough for an accident to go unwitnesses and unreported. If small girls in the natural course of play habitually broke their own hymen the ritual of bloodsheet virginity would not have developped in the first place.
As our friend Joey likes to say from time to time "Good googly moogly" or words to that effect.

JW, it seems you are (purposely?) missing the point.

Not all girls even have a hymen to be broken, and those that do, have varying types and reasons for it to break.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001497.htm
Imperforate hymen: The hymen is a thin tissue that partly covers the opening to the vagina. An imperforate hymen completely blocks the vaginal opening. This often leads to painful swelling of the vagina. Sometimes, the hymen has only a very small opening or tiny small holes. This problem may not be discovered until puberty. Some baby girls are born without a hymen. This is not considered abnormal.
So, modern medicine has discovered that either God and/or his followers who created this 'rule/ritual/thinking' on earth were unaware of reality. What's more likely here? Well, the confirmation of virginity by bleeding during intercourse is obviously flawed. So the likely explanation is that men who thought they knew more than they did created these rules and then proclaimed they are from a god. If a god made these rules then... wow... not a very competent god. Or an evil god I suppose. Clearly not all knowing and loving.

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #34

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:35 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:11 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:58 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:38 am There would be no 'blood sheets' if the young girl busted her hymen, while performing <physical activity> out in the field/other ...
Young virgins girls were not sent out into fields to do heavy duty work; they traditionally cared for household duties under the supervision of their mothers or the older women folk. The womenfolk who would logically be aware of tasks which might risk damaging the girls. It is unlikely her duties included gymnastics or horseback riding. In any case if she was damaged in the course of performing her tasks or even if habitually made to do things which might be seemed hazardous in that way, she would have witnesses that could testify in her behalf in the event of a trial.
.. I'm speaking about them playing, etc...

One example... She decides to climb a tree. She falls out. She's not hurt, but doesn't tell her parents about it because she is instructed not to do anything physical. Her hymen breaks and she does not know it. Why? She decides to swim in the pond near by shortly there-after. There is no evidence of her hymen breaking. She has no witnesses to boot, as she was in the back yard playing.

Five years later, her parents arrange her marriage.
The extremely modest religious society of ancient Israel, where girls were mostly kept segregated and veiled in public, the notion of a teenage girl climbing trees where anyone could look up under her robe, is far fetched to say the very least. As for going swimming unaccompanied (and unchaperoneed) even further. If she was accompanied she would again have witnesses of her activities and at least a plausible explanation'for her lack of bleeding as a bride.

It would be unlikely a very small child would not be away from her mother's (or Guardians) sight for any length of time and certainly not far away enough for an accident to go unwitnesses and unreported. If small girls in the natural course of play habitually broke their own hymen the ritual of bloodsheet virginity would not have developped in the first place.
You again give this populous too much credit. I wonder why? You assume all were 'perfect law abiding' parents.

You also acknowledge, by stating 'unlikely', that there's a chance a "broken hymen" could be missed. What is to become of their fate? I answered for you ---> a death-stoning. The 'proof', as Deut. 22 states, is 'the cloth'. You have yet to acknowledge.

I also stated, many posts back, that God is either dumb, or there is no god issuing such "rules". "Benchwarmer" further solidified this assessment in post 33.

Request #8:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #35

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:23 am ...
When A believer reads Deuteronomy 22:13-29, how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'?
What do you think is wrong or bad in that and why?

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #36

Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:08 am
1213 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:24 am
POI wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:35 pm ...
I say the Bible was written by men, and men alone. If this is the case, then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales.
Why would it be less authoritative, if it is written by men?
Why would the Quran or the Book of Mormon be less authoritative if they're written by men?
I don't say they are less authoritative because they are written by men.

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #37

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:42 pm
POI wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:23 am ...
When A believer reads Deuteronomy 22:13-29, how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'?
What do you think is wrong or bad in that and why?
You can start by reading the exchange between me and JW.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #38

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:42 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:08 am
1213 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:24 am
POI wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:35 pm ...
I say the Bible was written by men, and men alone. If this is the case, then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales.
Why would it be less authoritative, if it is written by men?
Why would the Quran or the Book of Mormon be less authoritative if they're written by men?
I don't say they are less authoritative because they are written by men.
I don't say that either. This was my initial hypothesis, from the OP:

"then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales."
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #39

Post by POI »

benchwarmer wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:40 am Some baby girls are born without a hymen. This is not considered abnormal.
This comment alone looks to have likely stopped JW in his tracks; about this particular point.

Let's see if he continues to ignore the rest of such inquisitive follow up questions:

(Request #9 for JW, as it pertains to Deut. 22). Will we continue to hear more crickets here?

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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