Marriage Violations?

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Marriage Violations?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Current hypothesis, prior to provided clarification:

I say the Bible was written by men, and men alone. If this is the case, then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales.

***************************************************************

For debate: When A believer reads the following passage, how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'? (i.e.):

Deut. 22:13-29

Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:06 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:51 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 2. The point (which you have yet to address) is that, given how most doctors say a hymen could be stretched or torn an ancient Hebrew girl would either not have had access to such things and/or, (given the import ) have been wise to refrain from doing them. The percentage of girls that would have bled would logically have been much higher than today in modern cultures (see point #1)
...Do you really think these ancients had such foreknowledge about "hymen retention"?

They did not have to, they just had to know about the physiological phenonema of bleeding: do you suppose the ancient did not know about blood?
I think you missed my point about 'hymen retention".
I think you missed the point about blood. As I said ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:34 pmThe bible did not order the girl be subject to an intimate examination or that the physical proof be the only defense made....
While not 100% certain, given the age of the girls and the culture in which they lived, bloodsheet evidence was a valid process to discourage promiscuity or false accusation.








RELATED POSTS

Why did the bible authorize bloodsheet testimony?
viewtopic.php?p=1081153#p1081153

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #22

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:21 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am What was to become of them, when they did not bleed on the wedding night, when they had not laid with a man?
That would be the point of a trial and testimony to establish if the {quote} "charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found" which indicate proof of the young woman’s virginity will be sought.
Let's instead read the passage in context (Deut. 22:16-21):

16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.

Notice the parts in red. The 'proof' lies in "the cloth". But not all women will have such 'proof'. So I guess this means these poor young innocent ladies are to be stoned to death, ala God's instruction.

Request #5

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

What about girls that were the exceptionnel the rule and did not bleed when posting their virginity?

FINDING EVIDENCE

That would be the point of a trial and testimony to establish if the {quote} "charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found" {end quote} . This indicates proof of the young woman’s virginity will be sought.

OBJECTION: Is the above procedure not simply a reference to finding the cloth?


Obviously the parents either have or do not have the cloth and would present themselves with it if they did. The condition to establish truth by finding evidence of virginity is not inviting the court to help look through the parents house and belongs but logically what should be done in the event the bloodsheet has not been provided.






RELATED POSTS

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #24

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:05 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm NOTE: The scripture was not (as in some cultures) instructing an examination of the girls hymen, and obviously did not require DNA identification; the garment alone was deemed enough ( the husband obviously being aware it had been recouperated by the parents). Interestingly the text mentions {quote} "young woman’s father and mother " as a girl is much more likely to deal with such intimate matters with her mother than her father.
Many likely had no bloody garments to present.
The blood requirement was part of their national law code, everyone would have known about it as the law was publically read to the nation by their priests on national holy days . Virginity has always been valuable for a new bride and bloodsheet ceremonies/customs are historically a very wideshread phenonema. In short since there were both string a legal and a cultural influences it is reasonable that parents did indeed systematically obtain the bloodsheets.
There would be no 'blood sheets' if the young girl busted her hymen, while performing <physical activity> out in the field/other ;) Oh, but that's right... The girls were restrained from <physical activity> because their later new loving husbands might accuse them of already being busted by another dude. Got it :)
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #25

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:37 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:19 am...her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town[...If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found ..
Obviously the parents either have or do not have the cloth and would present themselves with it if they did. The condition to establish truth by finding evidence of virginity is not inviting the court to help look through the parents house and belongs but logically what should be done in the event the bloodsheet has not been provided.
I'm going to re-ask an unanswered question.

Aside from the father's word, and/or a blood cloth, what other way(s) would exonerate the innocent female from a death-stoning - if accused of being busted by another man?

Request #6:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:38 am There would be no 'blood sheets' if the young girl busted her hymen, while performing <physical activity> out in the field/other ...
Young virgins girls were not sent out into fields to do heavy duty work; they traditionally cared for household duties under the supervision of their mothers or the older women folk. The womenfolk who would logically be aware of tasks which might risk damaging the girls. It is unlikely her duties included gymnastics or horseback riding. In any case if she was damaged in the course of performing her tasks or even if habitually made to do things which might be seemed hazardous in that way, she would have witnesses that could testify in her behalf in the event of a trial.


According to the website health Navigator NZ "About half of women bleed when they first have sex". The website flo- health ... says {quote} "Bleeding during the first sexual intercourse happens in only 43 percent of cases. The amount of blood can vary from a few drops to bleeding for a few days" and others propose the phenonemen is experienced by as few as a third. The British government Health website (NHS) points to various reasons why a women may not bleed after her first sexual intercourse , referring to ...
- activities such as horse riding and other sports
- using tampons
- masturbation
RELATED POSTS

Why did the bible authorize bloodsheet testimony?
viewtopic.php?p=1081153#p1081153

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:44 am

Request #6:
Please note I Feel no compulsion whatsoever to answer every post in every thread I participate in. Thankfully my eyesight is still reasonably good and if I do not respond it is usually because I have seen a request and have chosen to ignore it. With over 18, 000 posts and counting I have no desire to repeat myself but usually post RELATED POSTS linking to the same or similar questions I have responded to in the past.

There is also an INDEX of my posts at the foot of every post I write.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:19 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #28

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:58 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:38 am There would be no 'blood sheets' if the young girl busted her hymen, while performing <physical activity> out in the field/other ...
Young virgins girls were not sent out into fields to do heavy duty work; they traditionally cared for household duties under the supervision of their mothers or the older women folk. The womenfolk who would logically be aware of tasks which might risk damaging the girls. It is unlikely her duties included gymnastics or horseback riding. In any case if she was damaged in the course of performing her tasks or even if habitually made to do things which might be seemed hazardous in that way, she would have witnesses that could testify in her behalf in the event of a trial.
Who said anything about 'heavy duty work"? I know it was customary for the women to cook and clean. I'm speaking about them playing, etc...

One example... She decides to climb a tree. She falls out. She's not hurt, but doesn't tell her parents about it because she is instructed not to do anything physical. Her hymen breaks and she does not know it. Why? She decides to swim in the pond near by shortly there-after. There is no evidence of her hymen breaking. She has no witnesses to boot, as she was in the back yard playing.

Five years later, her parents arrange her marriage. The husband enters her on their wedding night. No blood is found. The husband thinks she has been with another. Her parents swear she is 'clean'. She swears she is clean. No matter. It's their word against the 'proof', or lack-there-of. In such a situation, the innocent girl will be stoned to death. This is God's plan for justice?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #29

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:08 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:44 am

Request #6:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
Your provided link is a Gish gallop /ˈɡɪʃ ˈɡælʌp/ --- a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments.

Request #7:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
Last edited by POI on Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #30

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to POI in post #28]

They must have had a quick and sure-fire method of checking virginity back then as evidenced by the Bible:

Numbers 31 (KJV):
"17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
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