Marriage Violations?

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Marriage Violations?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Current hypothesis, prior to provided clarification:

I say the Bible was written by men, and men alone. If this is the case, then the Bible is no more or less 'authoritative' than any other bronze-aged book of misguided assertions and legendary tales.

***************************************************************

For debate: When A believer reads the following passage, how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'? (i.e.):

Deut. 22:13-29

Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #11

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:07 pm
POI wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:28 pm - Did the 'rule maker' know that hymens can break without intercourse?
According to the website health Navigator NZ "About half of women bleed when they first have sex". The website flo- health ... says {quote} "Bleeding during the first sexual intercourse happens in only 43 percent of cases. The amount of blood can vary from a few drops to bleeding for a few days" and others propose the phenonemen is experienced by as few as a third. The British government Health website (NHS) points to various reasons why a women may not bleed after sexual intercourse , referring to ...
- activities such as horse riding and other sports
- using tampons
- masturbation
THE BIBLE DIRECTIVES

Given the above, the directives which, it should be noted , were to protect a virgin from unfounded accusations , were entirely reasonable:
1. Regardless of the true percentage, bleeding is not mythical but a real physical phenonemen.
2. The Hebrews culture would have girls married relatively young age who were not subject to the factors cited that contributed to the likelihood of a stretched (or torn) hymen.
3. Given its import a Hebrew virgin would naturally be aware to keep evidence of any exceptional circumstances which did result in vaginal bleeding by associated with her period.
3. There is nothing in the text which indicates that proof of virginity be restricted to the physical evidence of blood after penetrative sex
.


The bible did not order the girl be subject to an intimate examination or that the physical proof be the only defense made, but it did discouraged both wild accusations and promiscuity.

JW
As you alluded to above, a woman's hymen can break prior to her first intercourse session. ;) Hence, how did folks, in these times, determine if a woman was a virgin? Based upon Deuteronomy 22, would it be safe to say that if the husband was to accuse the wife of not being a virgin, as evidence by her not bleeding after their first intercourse session, this would be grounds for deeming her 'sinful'?.?.? If so, such a judgement may be deemed in error. In which case, she is instructed to be executed, by way of stoning 'unjustly'

I also noticed you did not address my other findings. Below is a recap:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now 'legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:48 pm

I also noticed you did not address my other findings.
I notice you did not address or counter argue a single one of the points I made. Repost below

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:07 pm
POI wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:28 pm - Did the 'rule maker' know that hymens can break without intercourse?
According to the website health Navigator NZ "About half of women bleed when they first have sex". The website flo- health ... says {quote} "Bleeding during the first sexual intercourse happens in only 43 percent of cases. The amount of blood can vary from a few drops to bleeding for a few days" and others propose the phenonemen is experienced by as few as a third. The British government Health website (NHS) points to various reasons why a women may not bleed after her first sexual intercourse , referring to ...
- activities such as horse riding and other sports
- using tampons
- masturbation
THE BIBLE DIRECTIVES

Given the above, the directives which, it should be noted , were to protect a virgin from unfounded accusations , were entirely reasonable:
1. Regardless of the true percentage, bleeding is not mythical but a real physical phenonemen.
2. The Hebrews culture would have girls married relatively young age who were not subject to the factors cited that contributed to the likelihood of a stretched (or torn) hymen.
3. Given its import a Hebrew virgin would naturally be aware to keep evidence of any exceptional circumstances which did result in vaginal bleeding not associated with her menstrual cycle.
4. There is nothing in the text which indicates that proof of virginity be restricted to the physical evidence of blood after penetrative sex
.


The bible did not order the girl be subject to an intimate examination or that the physical proof be the only defense made, but it did discouraged both wild accusations and promiscuity.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #13

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:34 pm I notice you did not address or counter argue a single one of the points I made.
Your response is a modern discovery, which validates my initial assessment. (i.e.) That hymens are not always in tact by the time the wife is to be with a husband on their wedding night. Remember, the ladies life was on the line here.... How exactly was a virgin's integrity verified? We'll get to that later...

My initial question is:

Did the 'rule maker' know that hymens can break without penetration? You did not answer with a (yes or a no). I'd wager, or hypothesize, that the answer was a <no> ;) Hence, either God is dumb, or there was no god directing such rules.

When one reads Deuteronomy 22, the writer suggests that if a husband were to be suspicious of their wife's virginity, they need "proof".

So, do you mind telling me what the Bible writers deem as 'proof'? I'll answer preemptively, to get things started...

- The father's word
- blood, (a little or a lot), during first intercourse with the husband
- Anything else? Because again remember, the woman was in danger of a "death-stoning" here. The stakes are high for her...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:34 pm Given the above, the directives which, it should be noted , were to protect a virgin from unfounded accusations , were entirely reasonable:
Disagree. See directly below...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:34 pm 1. Regardless of the true percentage, bleeding is not mythical but a real physical phenonemen.
2. The Hebrews culture would have girls married relatively young age who were not subject to the factors cited that contributed to the likelihood of a stretched (or torn) hymen.
3. Given its import a Hebrew virgin would naturally be aware to keep evidence of any exceptional circumstances which did result in vaginal bleeding not associated with her menstrual cycle.
4. There is nothing in the text which indicates that proof of virginity be restricted to the physical evidence of blood after penetrative sex
1. You verified that not all women will bleed during intercourse. Thank you for that...
2. You give these ancients too much credit. I wonder why? I highly doubt these fathers were aptly aware of their daughter's hymen status ;)
3. A woman's testimony was not deemed as viable as a man's, during this era. What good would it be for her to show a bloody cloth? The man could just as easily state it's not her blood. It's not like they could then also run a DNA screening for 'proof'. Or what about if she was unable to retain a sample for 'proof'? It's not like cameras were around back then to document the expressed event.
4. Kool. So you are going with the 'technicality' defense. Got it. ;) I ask again.... (Aside from the father's word, and/or bleeding during first intercourse), on what other means did the husband have to assure his new bride's virgin status?

Third request:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRIAL & JUDGEMENT



1. The point is that since a significant proportion of women do bleed following the loss of their virginity , it was a legitimate method of verification of virginity. The question for debate was "how does the Christian rationalize that God not only inspired such assertions, but that God is 'good'? " and my response is that #1. The method was simple and fairly reliable.

2. The point (which you have yet to address) is that, given how most doctors say a hymen could be stretched or torn an ancient Hebrew girl would either not have had access to such things and/or, (given the import ) have been wise to refrain from doing them. The percentage of girls that would have bled would logically have been much higher than today in modern cultures (see point #1)
NOTE: The scripture was not (as in some cultures) instructing an examination of the girls hymen, and obviously did not require DNA identification; the garment alone was deemed enough ( the husband obviously being aware it had been recouperated by the parents). Interestingly the text mentions {quote} "young woman’s father and mother " as a girl is much more likely to deal with such intimate matters with her mother than her father.
3. There is nothing in scripture that indicates a woman's testimony should be discarded because of her sex. Further, given the matters cultural and legal import it would be logical for mothers to educate their daughters as to what measures to take to protect their reputation. In the unlikely event that the girl knew she had engaged in some non sexual activity which has lead to intimate bleeding she would know to tell her mother , so her parents could take measures to protect her.

4. The father and the mothers word, the girls defense, no proof (circumstanctial evidence, third party testimony of unchaperoned or clandestine activities) of wrongdoing and physical evidence in terms of the foremention blood garment, would normally be more than enough for an acquittal.






RELATED POSTS


Why did the bible authorize bloodsheet testimony?
viewtopic.php?p=1081153#p1081153

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #15

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 1. The point is that since a significant proportion of women do bleed following the loss of their virginity
Again, thank you for verifying that not all women will bleed during intercourse.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 2. The point (which you have yet to address) is that, given how most doctors say a hymen could be stretched or torn an ancient Hebrew girl would either not have had access to such things and/or, (given the import ) have been wise to refrain from doing them. The percentage of girls that would have bled would logically have been much higher than today in modern cultures (see point #1)
You again give these ancients too much credit. I wonder why? Do you really think these ancients had such foreknowledge about "hymen retention"?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm NOTE: The scripture was not (as in some cultures) instructing an examination of the girls hymen, and obviously did not require DNA identification; the garment alone was deemed enough ( the husband obviously being aware it had been recouperated by the parents). Interestingly the text mentions {quote} "young woman’s father and mother " as a girl is much more likely to deal with such intimate matters with her mother than her father.
Many likely had no bloody garments to present. What was to become of them, when they did not bleed on the wedding night, when they had not laid with a man? A death-stoning?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 3. There is nothing in scripture that indicates a woman's testimony should be discarded because of her sex. Further, given the matters cultural and legal import it would be logical for mothers to educate their daughters as to what measures to take to protect their reputation. In the unlikely event that the girl knew she had engaged in some non sexual activity which has lead to intimate bleeding she would know to tell her mother , so her parents could take measures to protect her.
Granted, the Bible does omit many things. I stated, "a woman's testimony was not deemed as viable as a man's, during this era." Do you agree? If not, then you may want to tell Christians to stop trying to justify the Bible's claim to women sightings for a resurrection. (i.e.) Paraphrased -- "Since a woman's testimony was not deemed as high as a man's testimony, why wouldn't the Bible instead mention men seeing Jesus at the tomb? This means the Bible is being honest about who saw Him at the tomb"

Further, many mothers died in child birth. Especially during this era. So I'm not quite sure what your point is here? Again, many young girls hymens were likely no longer intact on their wedding night. Is it likely many were 'unjustly' stoned to death, due to improper knowledge? I would gather so. And this is supposed to be God's guided hand?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 4. The father and the mothers word, the girls defense, no proof (circumstanctial evidence, third party testimony of unchaperoned or clandestine activities) of wrongdoing and physical evidence in terms of the foremention blood garment, would normally be more than enough for an acquittal.
See the previous point(s).

Request #4:

- Is death a suitable punishment for adultery? If so, why no more?

- Is death a suitable punishment for premarital sex? If so, why no more?

- If a woman is raped, and the rapist is instructed to then marry her, does she (the victim) have a say in the matter? If so, how do you know? Seems a silly rule to even suggest; as I would imagine a rape victim would hardly ever want to marry their rapist? Why not instead suggest that he pays her "X" amount for life, or gives his life savings to her? Adding insult to injury, by devaluing her (by taking her virginity), to then also be entitled to keep raping her for life now "legally" by 'marriage', seems to be placing salt in the perpetual wound?
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 2. The point (which you have yet to address) is that, given how most doctors say a hymen could be stretched or torn an ancient Hebrew girl would either not have had access to such things and/or, (given the import ) have been wise to refrain from doing them. The percentage of girls that would have bled would logically have been much higher than today in modern cultures (see point #1)
...Do you really think these ancients had such foreknowledge about "hymen retention"?


They did not have to, they just had to know about the physiological phenonema of bleeding: do you suppose the ancient did not know about blood?






What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am



Many likely had no bloody garments to present.
The blood requirement was part of their national law code, everyone would have known about it as the law was publically read to the nation by their priests on national holy days . Virginity has always been valuable for a new bride and bloodsheet ceremonies/customs are historically a very wideshread phenonema. In short since there were both string a legal and a cultural influences it is reasonable that parents did indeed systematically obtain the bloodsheets.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am What was to become of them, when they did not bleed on the wedding night, when they had not laid with a man?
That would be the point of a trial and testimony to establish if the {quote} "charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found" which indicate proof of the young woman’s virginity will be sought.




Why did the bible authorize bloodsheet testimony?
viewtopic.php?p=1081153#p1081153

What about girls born without hymen or break or stretched their hymen engaging in non-sexual activities?
viewtopic.php?p=1081242#p1081242
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am What was to become of them, when they did not bleed on the wedding night, when they had not laid with a man?
That would be the point of a trial and testimony to establish if the {quote} "charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found" which indicate proof of the young woman’s virginity will be sought.

POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 4. The father and the mothers word, the girls defense, no proof (circumstanctial evidence, third party testimony of unchaperoned or clandestine activities) of wrongdoing and physical evidence in terms of the foremention blood garment, would normally be more than enough for an acquittal.
See the previous point(s).
See the previous posts
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Marriage Violations?

Post #20

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:51 am
POI wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:27 pm 2. The point (which you have yet to address) is that, given how most doctors say a hymen could be stretched or torn an ancient Hebrew girl would either not have had access to such things and/or, (given the import ) have been wise to refrain from doing them. The percentage of girls that would have bled would logically have been much higher than today in modern cultures (see point #1)
...Do you really think these ancients had such foreknowledge about "hymen retention"?


They did not have to, they just had to know about the physiological phenonema of bleeding: do you suppose the ancient did not know about blood?
I think you missed my point about 'hymen retention". I doubt these ancients were educated about the hymen being "stretched and torn" outside penetration. Heck, you had to address a modern discovery, as a rebuttal ;) I doubt such foreknowledge was widespread and known 2500 years ago? Do you really think it was just common knowledge, or common practice in mother/daughter teaching(s), for the young female to refrain from virtually all <physical activity> to avoid possible 'hymen degradation'?

"Psst... Hey Sally, stay in your room until you are married. Otherwise, you might bust your hymen somewhere and have no way to demonstrate the blood; and your newly appointed husband might 'justifiably'' stone you to death."
Last edited by POI on Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

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