If you were Satan....

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Athetotheist
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If you were Satan....

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Post by Athetotheist »

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #11

Post by Athetotheist »

1213 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:15 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am ...
So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
By what the Bible tells, in the book of Job, Satan goes against God, claims to know better than God and the proves he (Satan) is a sadistic torturer. On basis of that, I think he has delusions of grandeur, full of hubris, not self aware... ...I think he will fulfill the prophesies because of that he thinks he is better than God.
If Satan thinks he can overpower his omnipotent creator, he can't be as intelligent as he's made out to be. All the hubris in the universe couldn't lead anyone that intelligent to attempt the glaringly impossible.

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Re: If you were Satan....

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Post by Goat »

1213 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:15 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am ...
So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
By what the Bible tells, in the book of Job, Satan goes against God, claims to know better than God and the proves he (Satan) is a sadistic torturer. On basis of that, I think he has delusions of grandeur, full of hubris, not self aware... ...I think he will fulfill the prophesies because of that he thinks he is better than God.
That is not true at all. If the story of Job, Ha-Satan has to ask permission to proceed with each step. He is the prosecuting attorney claiming Job is not faithful. He goes after Job test his faith. Job keeps his faith, despite horrible things happening, and is rewarded for keeping faith.

This commentary on the first bunch of chapters of Job explain Satan, and his relationship to God and Job. Job
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #13

Post by Athetotheist »

Goat wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:41 pm
1213 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:15 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am ...
So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
By what the Bible tells, in the book of Job, Satan goes against God, claims to know better than God and the proves he (Satan) is a sadistic torturer. On basis of that, I think he has delusions of grandeur, full of hubris, not self aware... ...I think he will fulfill the prophesies because of that he thinks he is better than God.
That is not true at all. If the story of Job, Ha-Satan has to ask permission to proceed with each step. He is the prosecuting attorney claiming Job is not faithful. He goes after Job test his faith. Job keeps his faith, despite horrible things happening, and is rewarded for keeping faith.
Also keep in mind that, according to the text, Jehovah is the one who first mentions Job. Satan just comes "to present himself" among the host of heaven.

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #14

Post by Goat »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:55 pm
Goat wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:41 pm
1213 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:15 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am ...
So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
By what the Bible tells, in the book of Job, Satan goes against God, claims to know better than God and the proves he (Satan) is a sadistic torturer. On basis of that, I think he has delusions of grandeur, full of hubris, not self aware... ...I think he will fulfill the prophesies because of that he thinks he is better than God.
That is not true at all. If the story of Job, Ha-Satan has to ask permission to proceed with each step. He is the prosecuting attorney claiming Job is not faithful. He goes after Job test his faith. Job keeps his faith, despite horrible things happening, and is rewarded for keeping faith.
Also keep in mind that, according to the text, Jehovah is the one who first mentions Job. Satan just comes "to present himself" among the host of heaven.
That would be consistent with the Jewish concept that Angels could not rebel, because only Man has free will. Ha Satan (he is given the title The Accuser), because his roll is mentioned more than once, and that is the task he was assigned by God.

The purpose of Satan in orthodox Judaism is that of someone who presents bad choices, so someone can reject those bad choices and choose good. By choosing Good over Bad, they can then leave more sanctified lives.

I also think that Job was written to try to answer the question 'Why do bad things happen to good people'. It does a horrible job at it.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #15

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Goat in post #14]
That would be consistent with the Jewish concept that Angels could not rebel, because only Man has free will.
Support this statement, or withdraw it.

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #16

Post by Athetotheist »

Willum wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:46 pm [Replying to Goat in post #14]
That would be consistent with the Jewish concept that Angels could not rebel, because only Man has free will.
Support this statement, or withdraw it.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... w-of-satan

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #17

Post by Goat »

Willum wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:46 pm [Replying to Goat in post #14]
That would be consistent with the Jewish concept that Angels could not rebel, because only Man has free will.
Support this statement, or withdraw it.
By all means

From https://torah.org/learning/iyov-iyov2/
It is fundamental to Jewish thought that everything in the physical world has a spiritual counterpart, commonly referred to as angels, which are responsible for the growth and sustenance of all that exists in creation. These spiritual forces do not function independently of G-d. Rather, they are His delegates who are charged with specific missions. In this light we can understand the role of the “Satan” mentioned in verse #6. He is the prosecutor of the Divine court. Our sages describe the Satan as the force responsible for evil, death, destruction and temptation.

In addition to his role as prosecutor, the Satan is the chief instigator of crime against man and G-d. It is axiomatic that in order to fully exercise free will, equal opportunity for good and evil must exist. There can be no virtue in choosing good over evil if the latter is not, at the very least, equally accessible. The provocation of the Satan manifests itself in every moral and ethical dilemma we are faced with. Our deliberation may be an internal struggle of conscience or a battle with external social norms. The result is mental turmoil – the signature of the Satan. Temptation?…. it takes stress to forge mind and soul. The Satan’s role is not a scheme to corrupt our spirit. In fact, the Satan has a central role in the transformation of the mundane human being into a sanctified person
and https://aish.com/angels/
Angels are defined as metaphysical beings who are messengers of God. They are spiritual, but they have no free will. They can only do exactly what they have been commanded to do by their Creator.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #18

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Goat in post #17]

Wow! What a silly and preposterous explanation. Did you even read it?
Someone obviously without any understanding of the Torah's history re-interpretinging conveniently, impressing his own weak and wacky opinion on it. And a rabbi no less.
Strange.

The angels rebelled. An act of freewill. Stepping into the fire as it will. Not even Rabbi Yitzchak Schwart's aloof and wacky opinion can over turn that.
Just like Adam and Eve.

That was fun.
Last edited by Willum on Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #19

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #16]

Yeah, Judaic apologics unable to understand the definition of, "rebel."
It is funny how Juadists are invoked as authorities of this myth, (as anyone can be of a fiction), and no matter how non-sensical or wacky the thing is they say, it is accepted.

Incidently, I see no reason to accept your source, it does not seem to be backed up.

According to the tales of the OT and NT demons and Satan have freewill.
Having somebody rationalize OBSERVATION away is the cornerstone of religion.

The best I have seen is that angels needed to ask permission to do evil.
Another stupidity, as asking is an act of freewill.

The wonderful thing about religion is it is the only truth people get to make-up as they go along.

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #20

Post by Athetotheist »

Willum wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:20 am [Replying to Athetotheist in post #16]

Yeah, Judaic apologics unable to understand the definition of, "rebel."
It is funny how Juadists are invoked as authorities of this myth, (as anyone can be of a fiction), and no matter how non-sensical or wacky the thing is they say, it is accepted.

Incidently, I see no reason to accept your source, it does not seem to be backed up.

According to the tales of the OT and NT demons and Satan have freewill.
Having somebody rationalize OBSERVATION away is the cornerstone of religion.

The best I have seen is that angels needed to ask permission to do evil.
Another stupidity, as asking is an act of freewill.

The wonderful thing about religion is it is the only truth people get to make-up as they go along.
Go back and read a side-by-side between 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 and see if it looks to you like Satan was acting on his own.

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