David is Jesus's Ancestor?
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David is Jesus's Ancestor?
Post #1Hello Everyone,
One of the many contradictions in the 'Holy' Bible can be seen in Matt 1:1
'The book of genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham'.
This completely contradicts the widely accepted belief of God being Jesus's father through the miraculous birth through Virgin Mary. I have looked everywhere and have not found one source telling with supporting evidence that Mary has lineage to David either. There can be no other interpretation of this falsity, and if there is, it must have been hiding away in the annals of all of the Christian's minds who have even bothered to skim through the Bible even slightly.
Care to explain with sources and widely accepted proof?
Scott
Post #2
In the context of ancient Israel, sonship (like many other things, even gender) was less a matter of biology than legal status. Jesus was legally the son of Joseph and heir of the house of David, even if He was not genetically these things.
Look closer at Matthew's geneology, verses 15-16:
Furthermore, have a look at Luke's version of Jesus' geneology, starting in Luke 3:23. It says Joseph is the son of Heli, not Jacob, and there are many other differences. The reason for this is that, as many scholars understand it, this is the geneology of Mary.
But it says Joseph, so how can it be Mary? Because Mary apparently only had one sibling, a sister (John 19:25; Matt 27:56), her family name would have died with her father, so according to Jewish law (Num 7:1-11; Num 36:1-12; Lev 25:25; Dt 25:5-10) Joseph could have adopted her family name and been legally a son of both Heli and Jacob.
Incidentally, Mary is a descendant of David by Luke's geneology, so Jesus is heir to the house of David both legally and literally.
Furthermore, I think you should give the ancients a little more credit. If the contradiction you spoke of were real, since Matthew's account includes the virgin birth claim immediately after the geneology listing (Matt 1:18-23), would not Matthew (a tax collector, as I said; a professional well versed in Jewish laws and terminology) have changed his account to make some sense, or provided more of an explanation?
Look closer at Matthew's geneology, verses 15-16:
Note how Matthew uses "begot" for everyone except Jesus. Matthew was well aware that Jesus was not the literal son of Joseph, but as a tax collector, Matthew knew the legal way to present genealogies as through the legal (but not necessarily genetic) father.15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
Furthermore, have a look at Luke's version of Jesus' geneology, starting in Luke 3:23. It says Joseph is the son of Heli, not Jacob, and there are many other differences. The reason for this is that, as many scholars understand it, this is the geneology of Mary.
But it says Joseph, so how can it be Mary? Because Mary apparently only had one sibling, a sister (John 19:25; Matt 27:56), her family name would have died with her father, so according to Jewish law (Num 7:1-11; Num 36:1-12; Lev 25:25; Dt 25:5-10) Joseph could have adopted her family name and been legally a son of both Heli and Jacob.
Incidentally, Mary is a descendant of David by Luke's geneology, so Jesus is heir to the house of David both legally and literally.
Furthermore, I think you should give the ancients a little more credit. If the contradiction you spoke of were real, since Matthew's account includes the virgin birth claim immediately after the geneology listing (Matt 1:18-23), would not Matthew (a tax collector, as I said; a professional well versed in Jewish laws and terminology) have changed his account to make some sense, or provided more of an explanation?
Post #3
Shild wrote:
Some might disagree:
Shild wrote:
It is telling that you equate Matthew the apostle with 'Matthew' the evangelist as though they were the same person.Matthew was well aware that Jesus was not the literal son of Joseph, but as a tax collector, Matthew knew the legal way to present genealogies as through the legal (but not necessarily genetic) father.
Some might disagree:
Certainly Jesus is referred to as the Son of David in the Bible stories, and his followers believed that he was, but it is far more likely that the contradictory genealogies in Matthew and Luke are invention to support a messianic claim than they are factual history.It is the near-universal position of scholarship that the Gospel of Matthew is dependent upon the Gospel of Mark. This position is accepted whether one subscribes to the dominant Two-Source Hypothesis or instead prefers the Farrer-Goulder hypothesis.
It is also the consensus position that the evangelist was not the apostle Matthew. Such an idea is based on the second century statements of Papias and Irenaeus.
Shild wrote:
Perhaps that should read "... as many apologists understand it ...". There are absolutely NO contextual or grammatical grounds for the contention that Luke's genealogy refers to anyone but Joseph. Not that Luke's genealogy is without problems anyway. For example, Luke traces Jesus' ancestry back through David's son Nathan, when in fact it is Solomon's line that is promised kingship by God (1Chron. 28:4-10). Further Luke includes Shealtiel, son of Jehoiachin(Coniah), who was cursed by God and told that none of his seed would prosper on the throne of David (Jer. 22:30).It says Joseph is the son of Heli, not Jacob, and there are many other differences. The reason for this is that, as many scholars understand it, this is the geneology of Mary.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14
Post #4
This is definitely a controversial issue. However, the specifics of who wrote the Gospel of Matthew is not directly important to whether Selfless' contradiction is really a contradiction, so I would prefer to stay out of the authorship debate for now.It is telling that you equate Matthew the apostle with 'Matthew' the evangelist as though they were the same person.
Some might disagree:
but it is far more likely that the contradictory genealogies in Matthew and Luke are invention to support a messianic claim than they are factual history.
Actually, Luke's (or, I should say, the author of Luke's) use of Nathan is good evidence in favor of my position.There are absolutely NO contextual or grammatical grounds for the contention that Luke's genealogy refers to anyone but Joseph. Not that Luke's genealogy is without problems anyway. For example, Luke traces Jesus' ancestry back through David's son Nathan, when in fact it is Solomon's line that is promised kingship by God (1Chron. 28:4-10).
The reasons for this are as follows:
1) The Luke author's geneology could not have had the purpose of supporting "a messianic claim" if it did not come through Solomon, so the author clearly had a different motive.
2) It is an indicator that it is not Joseph's genetic geneology, since the Luke author would have made Joseph a descendant of David through Solomon unless Jesus had some other claim to the royal line of David.
I have my Bible open right now in front of me. Allow me to quote Luke 3:27:Further Luke includes Shealtiel, son of Jehoiachin(Coniah), who was cursed by God and told that none of his seed would prosper on the throne of David (Jer. 22:30).
Jehoiachin/Coniah's descendants were cursed, but the Shealtiel in Luke's geneology is the son of Neri, not Jehoiachin/Coniah. This is apparently a case of mistaken identity.the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri
Post #5
Shild wrote:
This is an odd statement, considering the importance to your original argument of Matthew's identification as a tax collector, well versed in Jewish laws etc...the specifics of who wrote the Gospel of Matthew is not directly important to whether Selfless' contradiction is really a contradiction, so I would prefer to stay out of the authorship debate for now.
So either 'Luke' is in error or God is. I can live with that.The Luke author's geneology could not have had the purpose of supporting "a messianic claim" if it did not come through Solomon, so the author clearly had a different motive.
So, you agree that it is invention?It is an indicator that it is not Joseph's genetic geneology, since the Luke author would have made Joseph a descendant of David through Solomon unless Jesus had some other claim to the royal line of David.
Apparently not. Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel, both names appear in both genealogies. In Matthew the lineage continues with Z's son Abiud, in Luke with his son Rhesa. Shealtiel was either Jeconiah's son by adoption and the natural son of Neri, or vice versa (depends who you read).Jehoiachin/Coniah's descendants were cursed, but the Shealtiel in Luke's geneology is the son of Neri, not Jehoiachin/Coniah. This is apparently a case of mistaken identity.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14
Post #6
That the author of Matthew is knowledgeable in Jewish laws and histories is clear from the text itself.This is an odd statement, considering the importance to your original argument of Matthew's identification as a tax collector, well versed in Jewish laws etc...
How is my argument hurt if the author is some other first century writer who has studied the laws and histories of the Jews?
Or, more likely, the modern reader is in error; specifically in the assumption that the purpose of the Luke geneology is to "support a messianic claim." The Luke geneology could not have this purpose if it is through Nathan instead of Solomon.So either 'Luke' is in error or God is. I can live with that.The Luke author's geneology could not have had the purpose of supporting "a messianic claim" if it did not come through Solomon, so the author clearly had a different motive.
My point with this statement was to demonstrate that, since the Luke author was not trying to support a messianic claim, Jesus must have had some other claim to the royal line of David.So, you agree that it is invention?It is an indicator that it is not Joseph's genetic geneology, since the Luke author would have made Joseph a descendant of David through Solomon unless Jesus had some other claim to the royal line of David.
This means that the Luke author's geneology must not have been the only geneology of Jesus. There must have been some other one out there such that Jesus was a descendant of David through Solomon.
However, this also means something else. Since 1) the Luke author's geneology is not the only one, and 2) the Luke author did not want to hurt the credibility of Jesus' claim to the royal Davidic line (the Luke author clearly believed Jesus to be the Messiah), the logical conclusion is that both genealogies are equally legitimate.
The most obvious way for two genealogies of the same person to be equally legitimate is if they are through different parents. Therefore, the Luke genealogy is through Mary.
There is honestly no reason for the Shealtiel/Zerubbabel (S/Z) of Luke to refer to the same person as the Matthew geneology and Jeremiah curse. Consider that Luke's Shealtiel has a different father and is a descendant of a different son of David. Also consider that some names (such as Joseph and Matthat) appear repeatedly within the same geneology.Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel, both names appear in both genealogies. In Matthew the lineage continues with Z's son Abiud, in Luke with his son Rhesa. Shealtiel was either Jeconiah's son by adoption and the natural son of Neri, or vice versa (depends who you read).
In the case of the Matthew geneology, here is Matthew 1:12
The historical marker "after they were brought to Babylon" leaves little doubt that the Jeconiah here is the same Jehoiachin/Coniah of Jeremiah, which of course brings us to the curse.And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel.
Some have pointed out that, since Jesus is not the genetic son of Joseph, the curse would have ended with Joseph. However, this strikes me as hypocritical, so I do not believe it is a good reason to believe the curse does not extend to Jesus.
A more important point is in Jeremiah. Here is the curse, Jeremiah 22:30
There are a variety of lingual clues in the original Hebrew which point to a short-term curse. However, the most obvious indicator that this curse has a temporal limit is the prophecy only five verses after the curse, Jeremiah 23:5Thus says the Lord:
"Write this man [Coniah] down as childless,
A man who shall not prosper in his days;
For none of his descendants shall prosper,
Sitting on the throne of David,
And ruling anymore in Judah."
A clear prophecy of the return to prosperity and royalty of David's line."Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth."
Post #7
Shild wrote:
Attributing Luke's genealogy to Mary is pure speculation, and can only be supported by rewriting scripture to suit that end. You have to insert Mary into the narrative although her name doesn't appear. You have to assume that when 'Luke' wrote son of he really meant to say son in-law of even though he was perfectly well capable of expressing the concept (Lk. 12:53). You have to assume that an Israelite woman can pass on a title that she herself cannot hold. Then, of course, you have to assume that 'Luke' wouldn't bother to explain that the genealogy was Mary's because you assume that his readers would be familiar with the book of 'Matthew'.
Also, Luke places Joseph within the house of David (Lk. 1:27-28, Lk. 2:4), but suggests that Mary, like her cousin Elizabeth, is a Levite (Lk. 1:5).
In naming Neri as the father of Shealtiel, Luke is at odds with any other references within the bible (you don't suppose he made an error, do you?). Your idea that there is another Shealtiel, father of Zerubbabel would seem to be original, as I have yet to find it suggested by anyone else. Most sources imply that Jeconiah was the natural father and Neri the adoptive one, although that seems rather speculative to me. In any case, Jeconiah's curse isn't all that vital to the argument.
Easy. If the author put the name 'Matthew' on his gospel to lend it authority, why wouldn't he include a fictitious genealogy too? His audience would have required a messiah who fulfilled OT prophecies, and it was the job of the gospel writer to give them one. It is interesting to compare the synoptic gospels, where Joseph is not considered to be Jesus' real father (Mt. 1:18, Mt. 22:45, Mk. 12:35-37, Lk. 1:31-35), to the earlier writings of Paul and 'John', where he is considered to be (Acts 2:30, Acts 13:23, Rom. 1:3, 2Tim 2:8, Heb. 2:16, Rev. 22:16).How is my argument hurt if the author is some other first century writer who has studied the laws and histories of the Jews?
Obvious to some perhaps. Of course if both genealogies are bogus, then they are equally legitimate as well.The most obvious way for two genealogies of the same person to be equally legitimate is if they are through different parents. Therefore, the Luke genealogy is through Mary.
Attributing Luke's genealogy to Mary is pure speculation, and can only be supported by rewriting scripture to suit that end. You have to insert Mary into the narrative although her name doesn't appear. You have to assume that when 'Luke' wrote son of he really meant to say son in-law of even though he was perfectly well capable of expressing the concept (Lk. 12:53). You have to assume that an Israelite woman can pass on a title that she herself cannot hold. Then, of course, you have to assume that 'Luke' wouldn't bother to explain that the genealogy was Mary's because you assume that his readers would be familiar with the book of 'Matthew'.
Also, Luke places Joseph within the house of David (Lk. 1:27-28, Lk. 2:4), but suggests that Mary, like her cousin Elizabeth, is a Levite (Lk. 1:5).
In naming Neri as the father of Shealtiel, Luke is at odds with any other references within the bible (you don't suppose he made an error, do you?). Your idea that there is another Shealtiel, father of Zerubbabel would seem to be original, as I have yet to find it suggested by anyone else. Most sources imply that Jeconiah was the natural father and Neri the adoptive one, although that seems rather speculative to me. In any case, Jeconiah's curse isn't all that vital to the argument.
That would be an unfulfilled prophecy.Jeremiah 23:5
Quote:
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth."
A clear prophecy of the return to prosperity and royalty of David's line.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14
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First Post
Post #8I think another area that would be important is Jesus's credibility as a Rabbi at that time. Matthew very well could have been justifying his position as a teacher, which at that time and throughout the Talmud was through Patriarchal lineage. In my opinion, Jesus would have been the ideal Philosohper King to Matthew. Where as Luke seemed to be more wrapped up with the birth of Jesus, (typified in the addition of 2 chapters on the subject ) including the divine conception, and taken Jesus's lineage through Mary.
Post #9
Apparently, we are going to have to get into the authorship debate, so here goes.If the author put the name 'Matthew' on his gospel to lend it authority
1) Matthew was the second most notorious apostle, next to Judas, because he was a tax collector (Matt 10:3). If you do not believe that tax collectors had bad reputations, look at Matt 9:11, Matt 21:31, Mark 2:16, and Luke 7:34. Tax collectors were always associated with the dregs of humanity, such as "sinners," "harlots," and "winebibbers."
If the author really wanted to give his gospel some authority, he would have used John the 'Beloved Apostle', or Peter 'the Rock' and chief apostle.
2) There is external evidence that Matthew wrote the gospel and there is no evidence that anyone else wrote it.
Papias and Irenaeus both state that Matthew authored his gospel first, and that it was in Aramaic. However, Papias' description seems to refer to a much simpler document that our Greek Matthew, possible little more than a list of sayings of Jesus.
Ring any bells? Historians (like C. Moule, for example, in his The Birth of the New Testament) equate this early, simpler Aramaic Matthew with Q.
What follows is that, first, Matthew wrote his simple Aramaic gospel, thus giving him technical priority.
Then Mark wrote his gospel, basing it on the teachings of his master Peter, and possibly incorporating material from Aramaic Matthew.
Next, Matthew wrote a more complete account in Greek. Naturally, he would use his earlier Aramaic text, and since he never had as much information as Peter (such as the Transfiguration), he took material from Mark as well.
Then Luke wrote his gospel, using both Matthew and Mark as sources.
It is true that attributions of the gospel to Matthew begin in the second century, about eighty years hence. However, compare to Tacitus' Annals. The first attribution of the Annals to Tacitus is by Tertullian, over 100 years later, yet you will be hard pressed to find a historian who does not agree that Tacitus wrote the Annals.
As for the authorship of Mark, once again, no one would have attributed an apochryphal gospel to him; this owing to the fact that he was not even an apostle.
And, once again, all external evidence agrees that Mark wrote the gospel.
First of all, the Acts quotes do not belong here. Reading the first verses of Luke and Acts will make it abundantly clear why:It is interesting to compare the synoptic gospels, where Joseph is not considered to be Jesus' real father (Mt. 1:18, Mt. 22:45, Mk. 12:35-37, Lk. 1:31-35), to the earlier writings of Paul and 'John', where he is considered to be (Acts 2:30, Acts 13:23, Rom. 1:3, 2Tim 2:8, Heb. 2:16, Rev. 22:16).
Luke 1:1-4
Acts 1:1-3Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seems good to me also, having had perfect understanding of allthings from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
[Emphasis mine]The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Obviously, Luke and Acts were written by the same person. Do you think he would be so stupid as to contradict one of the basic tenets of his earlier work?
Not that it matters. The Acts verses you cite (just like the2 Timothy and Revelation verses) refer to Jesus as a flesh-and-blood descendant of David, which is perfectly in line with my understanding of the Luke geneology as Mary's.
The Romans verse refers to Jesus both son of God and seed of David in the same verse, and once again there is nothing about Joseph being Jesus' literal father.
Now, the Hebrews verse is the funniest. Read it for yourself:
This verse does not mention the ancestry of Jesus at all .For indeed He [Jesus] does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham
You yourself have provided two pieces of evidence for this "speculation."Attributing Luke's genealogy to Mary is pure speculation, and can only be supported by rewriting scripture to suit that end. You have to insert Mary into the narrative although her name doesn't appear.
The first is that the geneology is through Nathan, so it cannot be an "invention to support a messianic claim." What other purpose could it serve, then, than to accurately record Mary's geneology?
The second is that, when the Luke author wrote Acts, he made it perfectly clear that the Luke author believed Jesus was physically a descendant of David; thus, since he definitely believed in the virgin birth (see Luke 26-38), he must have believed Mary was a descendant of David.
Here is the beginning of the geneology (Luke 3:23):You have to assume that when 'Luke' wrote son of he really meant to say son in-law of even though he was perfectly well capable of expressing the concept (Lk. 12:53).
All the punctuation was added by modern translators to aid modern readers' understanding (like the italicized words). An equally legitimate reading would be:Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
Now the "son of Joseph" part is supposed, and Jesus is directly called the son of Heli, presumably his grandfather on his mother's side.Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, (being as was supposed the son of Joseph), the son of Heli
This is not an assumption, see my earlier post; "Num 7:1-11; Num 36:1-12; Lev 25:25; Dt 25:5-10."You have to assume that an Israelite woman can pass on a title that she herself cannot hold.
Markan/Matthean priority arguments aside, all scholars agree that Luke was written after Matthew.Then, of course, you have to assume that 'Luke' wouldn't bother to explain that the genealogy was Mary's because you assume that his readers would be familiar with the book of 'Matthew'.
Add to this that Luke's "audience" is one person, Theophilus, and that Theophilus is already familiar with teachings concerning Jesus (See Luke 1:3-4, quoted above).
Luke "suggests" no such thing. He clearly states that Elizabeth is a Levite in this verse; so what? If Elizabeth's father was a Levite, that would make her a "daughter of Aaron" without requiring all her cousins to be Levites.Luke... suggests that Mary, like her cousin Elizabeth, is a Levite (Lk. 1:5).
Of course I do not suppose he made an error; if his S/Z are not the same people as Matthew and Jeremiah's S/Z, there is no possibility of error.In naming Neri as the father of Shealtiel, Luke is at odds with any other references within the bible (you don't suppose he made an error, do you?).
I can assure you that it is not my idea. According to the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Babylonian cuneiform tablets indicate that Zerubbabel was a common name in the Persian period.Your idea that there is another Shealtiel, father of Zerubbabel would seem to be original, as I have yet to find it suggested by anyone else. Most sources imply that Jeconiah was the natural father and Neri the adoptive one, although that seems rather speculative to me.
Also, the online Catholic Encyclopedia, found by your link, describes Shealtiel as a "common Jewish name."
I whole-heartedly agree.In any case, Jeconiah's curse isn't all that vital to the argument.
That would be a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.That would be an unfulfilled prophecy.
This makes a lot of sense. The Luke geneology, unlike Matthew's, is not in legal format (Matthew's starts with Abraham and goes forward; Lukes starts with Jesus and goes back).Where as Luke seemed to be more wrapped up with the birth of Jesus, (typified in the addition of 2 chapters on the subject ) including the divine conception, and taken Jesus's lineage through Mary.
Luke's geneology goes all the way back to Adam, so it is more too establish Jesus' human descent (a legal descent only went as far back as Abraham).
Also, if Luke himself wrote the book of Luke (very likely), it makes sense that he would be interested in the human linneage of Jesus and Jesus' miraculous birth, since Luke was a physician (Col 4:14).