Is Trinity Doctrine Scriptural?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

hiramabbi2
Apprentice
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Maryland

Is Trinity Doctrine Scriptural?

Post #1

Post by hiramabbi2 »

I don't believe trinity doctrine is supported by the Scripture!

I believe it is one of the so many products of Satan's Masterful Deception -inculcated in the minds of Christians since time immemorial - to take away the glory of of our Lord YHWH, the Son of the Invisible God Father.

Who do you consider as the Almigthy God Father? Why?

Who do you consider as the Son? Why?

BRIEFLY, please provide Scriptural support why you believe in trinity doctrine for our open discussion.

sojouner
Student
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:13 pm

Trinity is false

Post #21

Post by sojouner »

Hi all . I'm new to this argument so i'm just going to jump in boots and all,
mind your toes i have steel caps on.:oops:
There are many good reasons why the trinity is a false doctrine .
One of the many is that it destroys the victory Jesus had over sinful flesh. If Jesus was "very god of very God " he could not be tempted by sin for the Almighty is not tempted by sin (James 1 vs 12 -15) yet The bible clearly states that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. this is one of the reasons why I think alot of people reject "so called Christianity" they don't see it as relavent to them and the things going on in their lives. they See Jesus as some one above them (see point 3)

2) it destroys all the promises that the Almighty made to Adam(gen 3vs 15) Abraham (gen 12 ,13 ,15 etc) , Isaac , Jacob, king David about one of there descendants sitting on the throne of David. because if Jesus is "GOD" then how is he related to humanity???????????

3) It destroys Jesus priest hood for how can he be a good intercessor if he cannot relate to the trials and temptations??
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Who are his "brethren" here?? if you are a trinitarian surely that means "God and the Holy spirit??" So jesus has to interced for God to God??? :confused2: :confused2:

There are a lot of other reasons as well, as is explained in a thesis that I am able to direct you to that is on the web . All you have to do is ask.

User avatar
Amadeus
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #22

Post by Amadeus »

You are missing some things.

In the old testament, the Hebrew word ELOHIM is used. It is plural--literally GODS.

The last post bothered me. We aren't one with God in a "life-force" kind of way. The Holy Spirit lives in us and acts through us, but that IN NO WAY makes us the Holy Spirit! We have our oun souls and one day our souls will be in Heaven with God, all of us separate individuals.

User avatar
Amadeus
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #23

Post by Amadeus »

One of the miracles about Jesus Christ is that he sort of gave up his "God Power" to come to earth like one of us. Therefore, since he was human, he COULD be tempted by sin. UNLIKE US, he had the ability to refrain from sinning EVERY TIME. That was part of the proof he was the Son of God. That is how he CAN INTERCEDE and understand our temptations. How would you explain Pentecost. How would you explain Christ? Jesus's closest companions were willing to die horrible deaths to defend that Jesus was Immanuel--GOD WITH US! Why would people die--and so painfully--for something they made up?

THERE IS A TRINITY AND IT IS BIBLICAL.

User avatar
Amadeus
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #24

Post by Amadeus »

I just thought of something.

If you deny the Trinity, what is your view of Jesus? He definitely is not God, so if you believe in his deity, you are believing in two gods. God said we shall not have any other gods before him, so you must reject Christ's deity.

If you believe he is just a man, how do you explain his death atoning for ALL our sins? How do you explain that he was the only person who DIDN'T sin?

If Christ did not atone for our sins, you reject him altogether and are not Christian.

Please clarify your logic for me. I am curious. :-k

sojouner
Student
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:13 pm

Post #25

Post by sojouner »

armadeus
The Holy Spirit lives in us and acts through us, but that IN NO WAY makes us the Holy Spirit!
The same goes for Jesus He himself had the Holy Spirit descend on him sent from his Father. He himself ststes that "of my ownself I can do nothing" Now if he were "very God of very God" that statment would be a lie and as we know God cannot lie.
In the old testament, the Hebrew word ELOHIM is used. It is plural--literally GODS.
So you are saying that Because Jesus is given the tiltle "Elohim" he is "part of the god head"???
So do you include Moses in that God head ? so far a quadinity now
do you include the Jewish judges in the god head? so far a fiftyinity now??
Do you include Gods Holy angles in the God head as well? whats this? is it now not a triinity but a billioninity???
My point is this , Just because Elohim is used of someone does not make them co-equal and co-eternal with God. they are given that title because they are mighty ones (which Elohim means) in Gods eyes. as pointed out above there are Many mighty ones in gods eyes.
We have our oun souls and one day our souls will be in Heaven with God, all of us separate individuals.
tell me armadeus what is a soul?
Heres the biblical definition of a soul.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
this Verse in genesis 2vs 7 explains what a soul is.
after God breathed into Adams nostrills the breath of life he became a living soul so what was he before he started to breathe? ? ? ?
He (adam) was a dead soul . We don't have a soul we are a soul
This physical body is a soul.
One of the miracles about Jesus Christ is that he sort of gave up his "God Power" to come to earth like one of us. Therefore, since he was human, he COULD be tempted by sin. UNLIKE US, he had the ability to refrain from sinning EVERY TIME. That was part of the proof he was the Son of God. That is how he CAN INTERCEDE and understand our temptations. How would you explain Pentecost. How would you explain Christ? Jesus's closest companions were willing to die horrible deaths to defend that Jesus was Immanuel--GOD WITH US! Why would people die--and so painfully--for something they made up?

THERE IS A TRINITY AND IT IS BIBLICAL.
One of the miracles about Jesus Christ is that he sort of gave up his "God Power" to come to earth like one of us.
First off , Where are we told that he "gave up his God power",
second yes he had to be like us and have the same sinful flesh nature ,
that is why he prefered to use the title "Son of man " (around 70 times he is called either son of man or son of David and other similar titles).
IF however he pre-existed as he would have to as part of the co-eternal god head" that title could not be applied to him for he infact has norelation to the human race . the catholic system tries to cover this with their teaching of the immaculate deception. (Basically Mary was made sinnless during her "pregnancy")
If he was "God" he could not be tempted by sin for the bible clearly states in
James1 that "13 ¶ Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren."

The bible teaches that anyone that teaches that Jesus came not in the same nature as us is Anti -Christ
7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
If Jesus was very god of god he could not be tempted by sin therefore has no Victory over it.
if however Jesus was born to defeat the sinful propencities of our flesh nature by inheriting that same "problem" from his Mum and at the same time inheriting from the "specially " created genetic material from his creator to aid in coping with it he has a victory over the real enemy of man Death. for by dying before he sinned he broke the law of "the wages of sin is death" , because he hadn't sinned he could not stay dead hence the ressurection.
A thought just occured to me If Jesus is God , how could he die?
go to this link for more info http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sojouner/f ... rines.html
just thought of something.

If you deny the Trinity, what is your view of Jesus? He definitely is not God, so if you believe in his deity, you are believing in two gods. God said we shall not have any other gods before him, so you must reject Christ's deity.
thats a strange comment comming from a trinitarian ??? :-k :-k :roll:
I believe that Jesus is a highly exulted man for overcoming sin .
You say That there are a least 2 "OTHER" gods besides God.
Whos the polytheist here??? certainly not me!!!
more to say later im going to bed now!!

User avatar
Amadeus
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #26

Post by Amadeus »

I am not a polytheist, my dear.

The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is ONE GOD that can kinda divide Himself three different ways. St. Patrick used the cloverleaf as an example (I'm sure you've heard this already). It is one leaf, with three parts. If God is really Omnipotent, why CAN'T He be in three places at once?

Don't shortchange God.

User avatar
Amadeus
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #27

Post by Amadeus »

By the way,

Christ (in the Trinity) DOES have relation to humanity through Mary. It's been speculated all his DNA would be female. Which means he would have Human DNA. Basically, it is God himself, coming to Earth as a human so he could experience all the crap we go through (and resist it all) and show in person how much He loves us, instead of everyone just guessing cuz He's in Heaven.

sojouner
Student
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:13 pm

Post #28

Post by sojouner »

Armadeus
I am not a polytheist, my dear.

The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is ONE GOD that can kinda divide Himself three different ways. St. Patrick used the cloverleaf as an example (I'm sure you've heard this already). It is one leaf, with three parts. If God is really Omnipotent, why CAN'T He be in three places at once?

Don't shortchange God.
I am not a polytheist, my dear.
Yes you are for you believe in three gods
You believe that God is God
You believe that Jesus is God
You believe that the Holy Spirit is God
Sounds like polytheism to me.
The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is ONE GOD that can kinda divide Himself three different ways.

Please show from scripture where that nonsense is taught!!!
St. Patrick used the cloverleaf as an example (I'm sure you've heard this already). It is one leaf, with three parts.
I frankly don't care about what st patty said
You have for gotten about the stem (maybe thats the Angels cause they're given the title God(Elohim) to you know)
What about the roots maybe thats Moses(ditto the above)
Maybe the Jewish Judges are the flowers (ditto again)
We up to a billioninity yet??
Oh we forgot the disciples , Jesus told them"be ye one even as I and the Father are one."

I back myself up with Scripture the only true source of divine teaching

By the way,

Christ (in the Trinity) DOES have relation to humanity through Mary. It's been speculated all his DNA would be female. Which means he would have Human DNA. Basically, it is God himself, coming to Earth as a human so he could experience all the crap we go through (and resist it all) and show in person how much He loves us, instead of everyone just guessing cuz He's in Heaven.
Christ (in the Trinity) DOES have relation to humanity through Mary.
Sorry that is not what the immaculate deception was formulated to cover!!
It's been speculated all his DNA would be female.

Then "he" would be a she and you admit you are speculating
Get back to facts ands solid historical data.
Not unhelpful wishful thinking
Basically, it is God himself, coming to Earth as a human so he could experience all the crap we go through
Are you saying that God can be tempted by sin?
For God to "experience " all the crap we go through it means that he would have to be able to be tempted as we are , Yet the Bible Clearly states that God cannot be tempted by sin. This contradiction is one of the reasons why the Jewish people rightly reject so called "Christianity" and its
conflicting doctrines.
Also a good reason for the Muslim Faith to be adverse to it as well.
Thinking Atheists can see the problems as well and when they get wishy washy answers like this who can blame them for scoffing.
Pity they throw the baby out with the bath water though.

Questions for you Amadeus
Where in Scripture is Jesus called God the son?
Where in scripture does the word Trinity occur?

unprofitable servant
Apprentice
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:10 am

is trinity scripturally sound

Post #29

Post by unprofitable servant »

It is written All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness IItm 3:16 Esoteric wrote a paragraph of scripture which are supposed to prove his point. Yet reading each one I find that he only improved the argument against the trinity doctrine. Throughout these scriptures God is mentioned as being one. Not three in one. Jesus said' if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?jn3:12 Here is His point ' I and my Father are one"jn10:30 This is a heavenly thing. As my Master said before"All things are delivered to me of my Father and no man knoweth who the Son is but the Father and who the Father is but the Son and he to whom the Son will reveal Him"Lk10:22 In your trinity doctrine Jesus is made a liar for He said "Not that any man hath seen the Father save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father"jn6:46 It also means that the Holy Spirit is a liar which speaks saying"Because thath when they knew God they glorified him not as God neither were thankful but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise they became fools and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things"rm1:21-23 and 'He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself, he that believeth not God has made Him a liar because he believeth not the record that God gave of His Son'2jn5:10 Therefore the trinity does not agree with the Word. One ? is Jehovah Jesus' God?[/quote]

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Post #30

Post by bernee51 »

sojouner wrote:
It's been speculated all his DNA would be female.

Then "he" would be a she and you admit you are speculating
Get back to facts ands solid historical data.
Not unhelpful wishful thinking
Going back to solid historical data will remove your Christ from the equation alltogether...thre is no solid historical data as to his existence.

Wishful thinking most aptly describes the mythical Jesus.
sojouner wrote: Thinking Atheists can see the problems as well and when they get wishy washy answers like this who can blame them for scoffing.
Pity they throw the baby out with the bath water though.
As the Abrahamic religions are based on a book (or books) riddled contradiction and absurdities it is easy to see why an atheist would scoff at the so called problems..

rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater they look in the bath and realise that the baby has grown long ago, and left of its own accord. All that remains is a tub of dirty water.

And it is impossible to wash dirty water.

Post Reply