Is christianity logical?

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Christianity says that only if you are a christian you will go to heaven.Else you go to hell,that too permenant hell.All this is said while christians talk of god being kind and a father.My questions

1)What about the people born before christ?According to christianity they should have gone to hell.But this sounds highly injust.They were born before jesus.So they werent christians.So if they go to hell for not following a religion which is going to be established 1000 years after their birth,,isnt this injustice?

2)What about american native indians in 2nd century?They never heard about jesus.So they werent christians.So they went to hell,right?Isnt this injustice?

3)If jesus said "If somebody slaps you,show him your next cheek too"-how logical is it that such a kind man will throw away people who did not worship him into permenant burning hell?

4)If jesus prayed to god "father they dont know what they do.Forgive them" on his crucifiers,how logical is it to say that he will throw away people in permenant hell for not worshiping him?

5)If i do any sin,even if i beat my mother she will always love me.Even if i never repent for my sins she will always pray for my well being.Do you mean to say that god doesnt have this love on me which my mother has?

Imagine a man like Gandhi who died as a devout hindu.Will jesus tell gandhi "You did not accept me.So burn in hell"?Will he tell somebody like ted bundy "you did serial killings.But you are christian.So go to heaven"?Is this justice?is this logical?

[keltzkroz]

The God of the bible speaks against foolishness in several places and I dont think anything is more foolish than living your life by something just because.

Now, I have to apologize to those people in this forum who do not share my point of view about quoting the Bible when making a point, but I'm not a great thinker, or a philosopher, or a logician. To me, what is written in the Bible reflects what I'm trying to convey with words in the best way I can think of.

1 Corinthians 2:
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

For me, it does seem very foolish and illogical to accept something that I cannot fully understand. But always does my mind wander back to one of the passages I read: No man knows the "things of God", "but the Spirit of God."


1 Corinthians 3:
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

A lot of times, I find myself struggling, trying to understand my faith using human reason. But always does my mind wander back to one of the passages I read: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."


1 Corinthians 1:
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


Now "Jews" and "Greeks" were only used here as examples, or metaphor(?) for people who are looking for a sign in order to believe and people who would not accept something they don't fully understand with human reason/logic, not to be taken as judgmental or condescending.

And so even without a sign (although God has already done more that enough in my life), and without fully understanding, I believe.

[concerro]

I think what Concerro means is that we won't be able to fully understand everything or be able to explain miracles with logic (because they defy logic), but that is where faith comes in. I don't know how a CD works. I have a vague idea about how speakers work, but my lack of understanding does not stop me from playing CD's and using speakers.

keltzkroz is the one who said it does not matter. Concerro(me) is the one questioning that statement but thanks for explaining.
keltzkroz is Amadeus explanation correct?

[concerro]

The God of the bible speaks against foolishness in several places and I dont think anything is more foolish than living your life by something just because.

Now, I have to apologize to those people in this forum who do not share my point of view about quoting the Bible when making a point, but I'm not a great thinker, or a philosopher, or a logician. To me, what is written in the Bible reflects what I'm trying to convey with words in the best way I can think of.

1 Corinthians 2:
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

For me, it does seem very foolish and illogical to accept something that I cannot fully understand. But always does my mind wander back to one of the passages I read: No man knows the "things of God", "but the Spirit of God."


1 Corinthians 3:
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

A lot of times, I find myself struggling, trying to understand my faith using human reason. But always does my mind wander back to one of the passages I read: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."


1 Corinthians 1:
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


Now "Jews" and "Greeks" were only used here as examples, or metaphor(?) for people who are looking for a sign in order to believe and people who would not accept something they don't fully understand with human reason/logic, not to be taken as judgmental or condescending.

And so even without a sign (although God has already done more that enough in my life), and without fully understanding, I believe.

Verses like that are to easy to misinterpret in many different ways. That is another one of my problems with the bible. If a man can right a book that everyone can understand I dont see why the bible if it was inspired by a devine being can not be written or rewritten in such a fashion that it is easy to understand.

[keltzkroz]

[quote="concerro
If a man can right a book that everyone can understand I dont see why the bible if it was inspired by a devine being can not be written or rewritten in such a fashion that it is easy to understand.
[/quote]

I think you are beginning to see what I’m trying to say here. That is what Human Reason would let us believe, thinking such notions foolish, unreasonable, and illogical, and that is my point exactly. It does not make sense, does it?

Just like trying to explain Physics or Chemistry to a pet fish (assuming we can communicate using ‘fish-speak’). I can communicate all I want with my pet fish, trying to explain Physics and Chemistry to it, but it will never understand. Everything I’m trying to explain would make sense to me, but my pet fish’s mind would simply go ‘huh?’ My pet fish’s mind’s capacity to understand our world is far below a human mind’s capacity to understand our world. In the same way I accept that the human mind’s ability to perceive reality is far below God’s mind to perceive reality.

Now I know someone out there would say ‘God is supposed to be God, so He can make us understand no matter what.’ That is what Human Reason would let us believe, thinking such notions foolish, unreasonable, and illogical, and that is my point exactly. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God"

Just like the example Amadeus gave about someone using a CD player, I don't need to understand my faith completely in order to have faith in it.

[concerro]

If a man can right a book that everyone can understand I dont see why the bible if it was inspired by a devine being can not be written or rewritten in such a fashion that it is easy to understand.

I think you are beginning to see what I’m trying to say here. That is what Human Reason would let us believe, thinking such notions foolish, unreasonable, and illogical, and that is my point exactly. It does not make sense, does it?

Just like trying to explain Physics or Chemistry to a pet fish (assuming we can communicate using ‘fish-speak’). I can communicate all I want with my pet fish, trying to explain Physics and Chemistry to it, but it will never understand. Everything I’m trying to explain would make sense to me, but my pet fish’s mind would simply go ‘huh?’ My pet fish’s mind’s capacity to understand our world is far below a human mind’s capacity to understand our world. In the same way I accept that the human mind’s ability to perceive reality is far below God’s mind to perceive reality.

Now I know someone out there would say ‘God is supposed to be God, so He can make us understand no matter what.’ That is what Human Reason would let us believe, thinking such notions foolish, unreasonable, and illogical, and that is my point exactly. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God"

Just like the example Amadeus gave about someone using a CD player, I don't need to understand my faith completely in order to have faith in it.

If the bible was trying to explain everything that takes place then that statement float but the bible mostly is about was is supposed to be right and wrong, and how people should live their lives.
My parents(humans) taught me right from wrong, and while it is true that I have not always done what I should I cant say it was always becuase I did not know better. God who should be infinitely wiser than any human cant even get a book out where people agree on the meaning.
Some people say it is becuase there are problems with the translations from the original text, but if you are God and you truly love all your children(us) then instead of sending us to hell for not understanding a book why not just put out a version that can be understood today and a in a few hundred years from now if it is needed do it again. There is no reason if the bible is divine why it should be as misunderstood as it is.

[Amadeus]

Concerro (right person this time? ):
Yes, the Bible speaks mostly of rules. But, the most important aspect of the Scripture is NOT the rules, but the theology. THAT is the main point that God is trying to get across to His people. Start with the Theology of the Bible. THen work on the confusing parts after you believe. Don't try to understand everything first, just see if you can get to a place where you can say "yeah, I think I can see myself believing that."

You know, I have heard it said many times that the Bible WILL be confusing to anyone that doesn't have the Holy Spirit to help them read it. For someone that does not believe in the Holy Ghost in the first place, that seems outlandish, but it is SO true. Before my dad was a Christian, he took a Bible as Literature class in High School. He flunked. But now, He is one of the most knowledgeable Christians I know. He studies so much, and He is trying to finish college so he can go to Semenary and become a Pastor.

The point of the Gospels and the Epistles is that God will no longer send us to Hell for misunderstanding the Law. He grants us Heaven if we have faith, which sometimes means believing with out understanding every detail. I think the Holy Spirit will help you if you first believe.

[concerro]

Concerro (right person this time? ):
Yes, the Bible speaks mostly of rules. But, the most important aspect of the Scripture is NOT the rules, but the theology. THAT is the main point that God is trying to get across to His people. Start with the Theology of the Bible. THen work on the confusing parts after you believe. Don't try to understand everything first, just see if you can get to a place where you can say "yeah, I think I can see myself believing that."

You know, I have heard it said many times that the Bible WILL be confusing to anyone that doesn't have the Holy Spirit to help them read it. For someone that does not believe in the Holy Ghost in the first place, that seems outlandish, but it is SO true. Before my dad was a Christian, he took a Bible as Literature class in High School. He flunked. But now, He is one of the most knowledgeable Christians I know. He studies so much, and He is trying to finish college so he can go to Semenary and become a Pastor.

The point of the Gospels and the Epistles is that God will no longer send us to Hell for misunderstanding the Law. He grants us Heaven if we have faith, which sometimes means believing with out understanding every detail. I think the Holy Spirit will help you if you first believe.

YES IT IS I
I used to be a christian and it did not make sense to me then and there are others who are very dedicated and intelligent people who still dont understand it. If it makes sense then I should be able to understand it. The idea of just accepting without proof and beleiving w/o understanding is hard for me to buy.

[Amadeus]

The real crux here is that the existence of God is impossible to prove, though a compelling case can be made for His existence. One cannot, however, prove that He DOESN'T exist, so their IS a choice to be made without sufficient proof. That is where faith comes in. Some things in life just cannot be proved. If my fiance doubts that I love him, I can exhibit my love, but I cannot prove it. He must have faith that I love him for us to get anywhere in our relationship.

Perhaps yopu could pm me some of your objections. Maybe I have something different to say than you've heard before, and maybe God can use me to help you understand.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Perhaps yopu could pm me some of your objections. Maybe I have something different to say than you've heard before, and maybe God can use me to help you understand.

To start off my question is why god discriminates on basis of religion.That is why does he sends non-christians to eternal,burning hell.And if all non-christians go to eternal hell,where did the native american indians of 1st century go?They had no opportunity of hearing about jesus.So they did not become christians.But they must have gone to hell since they werent christians.Is that justified?

[bernee51]

The real crux here is that the existence of God is impossible to prove, though a compelling case can be made for His existence.

I know of no compelling evidence for the existence of any deity, and that is especially so for the god of christianity.

One cannot, however, prove that He DOESN'T exist, so their IS a choice to be made without sufficient proof.

Not choice, conclusion.

If my fiance doubts that I love him, I can exhibit my love, but I cannot prove it.

You can tell him. You can do (or not do) things which confirm (or deny) your love. He can see you face to face and conclude for himself.

and maybe God can use me to help you understand.

An omni everything god could do that without you as an intermediary.