How did Jesus take our punishment?

[OnceConvinced]

Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.

But did Jesus really take our punishment?

The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?

If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?

It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.

So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?

[Falling Light 101]

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Why would we pretend to be unaware of the fact - that the Trinity demands that Jesus is ETERNALLY inferior to the father -

why would we hide - that Trinitarians demand that Jesus exists as SECOND IN COMMAND in a Trinity hierarchy wherein Jesus even BEING EXALTED = EVEN BEING TAKEN TO HIS VERY HIGHEST POSITION OF POWER - He is ONLY seated

“ AT or ON “ the right hand side of the fathers throne.

THE FACT IS - Trinitarians deny that Jesus is to sit “ IN “ the throne of the Father -

instead Trinitarians change and alter the translation to say that Jesus is sitting “ AT or ON “ the right hand side of the father. BUT THE MANUSCRIPTS SAY THAT HE IS to sit “ IN “ the throne of the Father -

How can Jesus be “ AT or ON “ the right hand side of the father if he himself has said that he - is to sit “ IN “ the throne of the Father.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father IN his throne.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and TO his throne.
The bible makes it clear

Jesus is - set down with his Father - IN his throne.
Jesus is - caught up unto God, and TO his throne.

BUT THE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATION SAYS THAT HE IS SEATED BESIDE THE THRONE OF GOD
THE TRINITY JESUS IS SEATED “ AT or ON “ THE RIGHT HAND SIDE of the father.

So which is it - ? ?

Is Jesus IN the throne of God and caught up unto God, and TO his throne.

or is the Trinitarian Jesus AT or ON the right hand side of the throne of God ?

Looking at the manuscripts - in Php 2:1

Php 2:1 says - be in consolation in THE ANOINTING
:2 have the same love, of one accord, one mind.
:3 esteem others better than ourselves.
:4 Look not our own things, but also look on the things of others.
AND THE WORD “ LET “ THIS MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN JESUS

THE WORD “ LET “ is not in the manuscripts - TRINITARIANS HAVE INSERTED / ADDED this word.

The manuscripts say
Php 2:5 Τουτο THIS - γαρ FOR - φρονεισθω REGARD - εν IN - υμιν YOURSELVES - ο WHOM - και ALSO - εν IN - χριστω ANOINTING - ησους YAHOSHUA.

REGARD WHAT ?

REGARD THE ABOVE LISTED VIRTURES IN YOURSELVES = YOU - WHO ARE IN YAHSHUA
REGARD :2 having the same love, of one accord, one mind.
REGARD :3 esteeming others better than ourselves.
REGARD :4 Looking not our own things, but also look on the things of others.

YAHOSHUA
:6 ος WHO - εν IN - μορφη MORPH - θεου GOD - υπαρχων EXISTED - ουχ NOT - αρπαγμον TAKING - ηγησατο JUDGMENT - το TO - ειναι BE - ισα EQUALLY - θεω GOD

:7 αλλ BUT - εαυτον HIMSELF - εκενωσεν EMPTY / VOID - μορφην MORPH OF - δουλου A SERVANT - λαβων TAKING - εν IN - ομοιωματι THE LIKENESS - ανθρωπων OF MANKIND - γενομενος HE BECAME

MEANING

Php 2:1 be in consolation in THE ANOINTING
:2 have the same love, of one accord, one mind.
:3 esteem others better than ourselves.
:4 Look not our own things, but also look on the things of others.
:5 THIS FOR REGARD IN YOURSELVES WHOM ALSO IN THE ANOINTING YAHOSHUA.

YAHOSHUA
:6 WHO IN THE MORPH OF GOD, EXISTED NOT TAKING JUDGMENT TO BE EQUALLY GOD.

:7 BUT HIMSELF, EMPTY / VOID MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.

There is no such a word saying - LET or ALLOW

So we see that the manuscripts make it clear that Yahashua was in the MORPH of God and that Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - BECOMING EMPTY / VOID OF EXISTING AS GOD -

he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF BECOMING LESSER / LOWER becoming AS CHANGING HIMSELF IN AN ALTERED MORPH / FORM, BECOMING - - A SERVANT OF GOD

WHY - would he be lowering himself - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD
TO BE CHANGING - INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD - AND VOID / EMPTY OF EXISTING AS EQUALLY GOD - ?

Trinitarian teaching demands - that Jesus was always lesser than the Father
Trinitarian teaching demands - that Jesus was given power and ability to participate in creating the heavens and earth.

Jesus was taking ORDERS and receiving his power and ability from the Father - to participate in creating the heavens and earth.

Trinitarian teaching demands - that Jesus is eternally - under the command of God and exists in a TRINITY as the SECOND PERSON in a Trinity GODHEAD hierarchy and in ranking order - wherein His Father is forever more powerful, forever greater, forever superior and that the Holy Spirit is the third person who is taking orders and controlled by the Father and Jesus.
The Father is commanded by no one - but commands Jesus - and Jesus commands the Holy Spirit.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT TRINITARIANS DEMAND.

Trinitarian teaching demands - that A NEW position and NEW rank is being given to Jesus after his resurrection - HIS NEW POSITION OF POWER IS TO RE POSITIONED and RE LOCATED AT or ON the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF THE FATHER.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is ON the right hand of God.

Mar 14:62 ye shall see the Son of man sitting ON the right hand of power

Mar 16:19 he was received up into heaven, and sat ON the right hand of God.
Eph 1:20 when he raised him from the dead, and set him AT his own right hand

after his resurrection - THE TRINITARIAN JESUS RECEIVES HIS NEW POSITION OF POWER TO BE RE POSITIONED and RE LOCATED - AT or ON the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF THE FATHER.

THE HIGHEST POSITION AND VERY HIGHEST POWER EVER BEFORE TO BE GIVEN TO ANYONE _
JUST BELOW THE AUTHORITY OF THE FATHER - SITTING ON / AT the right hand side of the Father.

Psa 110:1 , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mat 22:44 Sit thou AT or ON my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mar 12:36 Sit thou AT or ON my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Heb 1:13 Sit AT or ON my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

THE TRINITY JESUS IS TO BE SEATED “ AT or ON “ THE RIGHT HAND SIDE of the father.

BUT

Jesus said he was returning TO THE SAME GLORY - THE SAME POSITION THAT HE HAD BEFORE HE CAME TO EARTH - Jesus said he was returning to the same position that he had before he was to come to earth.

returning TO THE SAME GLORY

To sit IN / INSIDE the throne of God and to be caught up unto God, and TO His throne.

This is a massive contradiction, wherein the Trinitarian Jesus pre – exists as an eternal SECOND IN COMMAND - A SECOND PERSON OF A TRINITY GODHEAD.

The Father granted The Trinity Jesus permissions and authority to create the heaven and earth
The Father granted The Trinity Jesus power and authority to come to earth Joh 6:37-38 Jesus is following Father's instructions / ORDERS to come to earth.
The Father SENT / ORDERED the Son to go the world Joh 3:16
ORDERED THE SON TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF
The Father is the superior PERSON in the Trinity who is COMMANDING / SENDING Jesus to earth.


Trinitarians demand - that Jesus was always submissive to the Father - always ETERNALLY a SERVANT to the father = pre - existing in a TRINITY GODHEAD UNDER THE FATHER - AN OBEDIENT SERVANT

BUT the manuscripts say that Yahashua

Php 2: :6 WHO IN THE MORPH OF GOD, EXISTED NOT TAKING DECISION TO BE EQUALLY GOD.

:7 BUT HIMSELF, BECAME EMPTY / BECAME VOID CHANGING INTO THE MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.

My question is - - -

WHY IS YAHASHUA CHANGING / ALTERING and MODIFYING and ADJUSTING / MORPHING and LOWERING and DECREASING and REDUCING HIMSELF -


WHY IS YAHASHUA becoming empty / void and vacant of existing as EQUALLY God and SUDDENDLY SUDDENLY CHANGING HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF GOD
WHY IS YAHASHUA SUDDENLY CHANGED AND ALTERED TO THE POINT THAT HE NO LONGER EXISTS TO BE EQUALLY GOD.

BUT HIMSELF, HE HAS SUDDENY BECAME EMPTY / BECAME VOID OF EQUALITY TO GOD

CHANGING INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH HE PRE EXISTED = CHANGING INTO BECOMING A SERVANT

He is changed and lowered into - THE MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.

BUT Trinitarians demand that Jesus always pre existed in heaven in exactly this very form. The Trinitarian Jesus was always existing as a SON OF GOD - ALWAYS IN OBEDIENCE ALWAYS FOLLOWING ORDERS - ALWAYS A SERVANT who TOOK ORDERS FROM THE FATHER.

this is who and what the Trinitarian Jesus - already was ?

IF - Yahashua came to earth and lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF - BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD

WHY - would he be lowering himself - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD –

If this is who and what he already was ?


Everything that the Trinitarian Jesus was - everything that the Trinitarian jesus did - before he came to earth - EVERYTHING was granted to him by his Father.
When we read from the Original Manuscripts

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting { εκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power,


εκ = ek / EX

The Greek word " EX " Means = A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; , from (among, forth out (from, of), (-out of ).

NEVER - NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE TIME - do we find Yahashua sitting ON or AT the right of God. This simply does not exist in the manuscript.

Yahashua is always dwelling OUT OF and IN the right of God

OUT OF = εκ EX and IN = EN the right of power

OUT OF = εκ EX and IN = EN the right of the throne

OUT OF = εκ EX and IN = EN the right of the Father

Rom 8:34 Christ εν - - en " in the right of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20 Christ is εν - - en " in his own right εν - - en " in the heavenly place.
Heb 12:2 Christ is set εν - - en " in the right of the throne of God.
Heb 1:3 Christ. . . . . The express image of The Fathers confidence, . . . . Sat down - - εν - - en " in the right of the Majesty εν - - en " in the high.
Heb 8:1 Christ is set εν - - en " in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
Heb 10:12 Jesus is forever sat down εν - - en " in the right of God.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, And is εν - - en " in the right of God.

NEVER EVEN ONCE - are the words ON or AT used to describe Yahashua sitting or dwelling anywhere concerning God and his throne

Mat 26:64 ye see the Son of man sitting { εκ / EX - OUT OF } the right of power,

Trinitarians completely alter the entire narrative by deleting the Greek words that ALWAYS / ALWAYS say

OUT OF = εκ EX and IN = EN εν

They literally insert their Trinity by replacing IN and OUT - with AT and ON

This is a deliberate alteration and mistranslation CHANGE - based upon inserting and removing the original message and inserting a TRINITARIAN ideology into the passages.

This is exactly what the entire trinitarian religious system is all about - they go through the entire Bible changing words that are never changed in the rest of the translation - THEY ONLY CHANGE THE WORDS PERTAINING TO THE TRINITARIAN FAITH SYSTEM, and then they revert back to correctly translating the words accurately - once their faith system has been inserted and implanted into the translation

And this is not just about the Trinity - Trinitarians go through changing everything / EVERYTHING they need to conform to their entire faith system.


The Greek never once describes Yahashua in any other way - but existing IN and OUT OF God NOT EVEN ONCE.


- - Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.

i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -

i COME NOT ALSO FROM - OFF OF / OUT OF MYSELF -

i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -

Meaning - Yahoshua was not a mere “ departing exiting FORM “ nor MORPH * of his OWN pre - existence. - - Nor even a departed FORM or MORPH of his own self " himself. " as a separate pre-existing person.__

Never is Yahashua described as being AT or ON the right of God - it is always without exception -

OUT OF = εκ EX and IN = εν EN

εκ EX and εν IN - do not mean AT or ON anywhere else in the entire Translation - unless Trinitarians are attempting to change this - to INSERT and REPLACE the meaning orbiting around their Trinity doctrine.


The fact is Yahashua is never said to be positioned or seated AT or ON the right of God

THE MANUSCRIPTS ALWAYS SAY - He is IN and OUT of the right of God.

The Trinitarians change the words - IN and OUT deleting these words and changing them into
AT or ON
seated AT or ON does not exist anywhere in the Bible.

I challenge a Trinitarian to provide a single passage in the manuscript that says that Yahashua is
AT or ON the right of God.

THE MANUSCRIPTS ALWAYS SAY - He is IN and OUT of the right of God.

Trinitarians simply have no manuscripts for their faith system.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to OnceConvinced in post #101]

Jesus did not "pay" the wages for our sins or "take our punishment." That is not what saves us.

The Bible contains two testaments, covenants, or wills between God and mankind. The inheritance under both covenants is everlasting life.

The only way one could become an heir to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin. However, there was a fault in the first testament in that all mankind sinned! Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

Covenants or wills require the following two parties:

1. Testator – This the person who writes the covenant. He is giving away his asset(s) by executing the instrument.
2. Beneficiaries – These are the people defined in the testament who will receive some asset from the estate.

The two parties to the Old and New Testaments of the Bible are God and Mankind. God is the Testator and individuals of mankind are the possible beneficiaries.

As a man, Jesus Christ could become a beneficiary and inherit everlasting life by living a sinless human life under the original testament between God and mankind.

And that is what Jesus did! Thus, He became the first and only man to ever qualify as a beneficiary under the original testament by fulfilling the requirement of never sinning. His name is written in the Book of Life as an heir to everlasting life.

By doing so, He now has a guaranteed asset which God the Father then allowed Jesus to offer under the New Testament as a free gift to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But He has only one everlasting life to offer, so how can He offer it to more than one human sinner?

By one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men.

That being the case, it is just as fair that through the gift one man, Jesus Christ, everlasting life may abound unto many.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

The New Testament became the active will and testament when Jesus (the testator) died on the cross.

His death did not save us, as the first death is appointed to all mankind.

What saves us is that instead of accepting His justly earned inheritance of everlasting life, He freely gives it away to those of us who accept Him as their Savior.

Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ, and sin no longer controls our salvation. We are all headed for the second death, but we can avoid it by accepting the gift of everlasting life from Jesus, which is His rightful inheritance gifted to us under the New Testament Covenant.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

[Falling Light 101]

I went to your website and took a close look at the message you present, I agree with everything I was able to read.

The part you mention about the millions of years gap between the period from when God formed the earth until when He began to create life on earth, I have had that very question or thought in my mind and have wondered about this possibility.

[2ndpillar2]

Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.

But did Jesus really take our punishment?

The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?

If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?

It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.

So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?

Yeshua told the sick man, get up and walk, and asked the question, is it easier to say get up and walk or that your sins are forgiven. The problem is that the "Christians" are not healed, and therefore they live in their sins. They certainly will die, for Jeremiah 31:30 clearly states that everyone will die for their own transgressions. Why are the "Christians" not healed? It is because they haven't heeded the message of Yeshua, which was to keep the commandments. As for hell, it generally means the grave, the pit, Sheol, hades, but in everyday use, life is hell for the sinners, for they walk in their sins. They fear death, and sell their souls, so that some doctor can treat them with their special type of witchcraft, which is full of potent elixirs. That is punishment in itself. If it is your time to die, then just do it gracefully. Yeshua's message was the kingdom of heaven, which is two fold, and in both cases, it revolve around keeping the Law of God, the 10 commandments, which are for every man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

[Tcg]

Yeshua told the sick man, get up and walk, and asked the question, is it easier to say get up and walk or that your sins are forgiven.

No. It is reported that Jesus said this. What verifiable evidence can you present that a man named Jesus, or Yeshua if you prefer, actually said this?


Tcg