Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.
But did Jesus really take our punishment?
The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?
If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?
It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.
So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?
How did Jesus take our punishment?
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How did Jesus take our punishment?
Post #1Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
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Post #91
OP Once Convinced wrote:
“Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.“
My response:
I think it is great to ponder or consider any point of doctrine critically. We should all understand that if we do not ask questions from God we do not get the true answers.
BTW my answers may not follow what you state as “standard christian doctrine�. I welcome and challenge you to discern if my answers make sense.
“But did Jesus really take our punishment?�
"The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?
If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?
It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.
So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?"
My response:
First, I would like to correct a misunderstanding you have regarding the resurrection. You stated that sinners will not be resurrected.
I do not think you can find anywhere in scripture that sinners will not be resurrected. It is my understanding that ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED. I think this marvelous free gift of resurrection to all is a wonderful example of Christ’s great love and mercy!
Also it is correct that unrepentant sinners will suffer “eternal� punishment. But wait, before you jump to an incorrect conclusion regarding what I just said, please let me explain a clearer definition of “eternal punishment. Eternal is one of
God’s names. Therefore “eternal� punishment is God’s punishment. This does not mean a unrepentant sinner will be punished forever.
You should also remember that Christ never told those who were crucified with him that they would go directly to heaven.
That is my response for now. I hope this will assist you in gaining a clearer understanding.
Kind regards,
RW
“Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.“
My response:
I think it is great to ponder or consider any point of doctrine critically. We should all understand that if we do not ask questions from God we do not get the true answers.
BTW my answers may not follow what you state as “standard christian doctrine�. I welcome and challenge you to discern if my answers make sense.
“But did Jesus really take our punishment?�
"The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?
If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?
It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.
So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?"
My response:
First, I would like to correct a misunderstanding you have regarding the resurrection. You stated that sinners will not be resurrected.
I do not think you can find anywhere in scripture that sinners will not be resurrected. It is my understanding that ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED. I think this marvelous free gift of resurrection to all is a wonderful example of Christ’s great love and mercy!
Also it is correct that unrepentant sinners will suffer “eternal� punishment. But wait, before you jump to an incorrect conclusion regarding what I just said, please let me explain a clearer definition of “eternal punishment. Eternal is one of
God’s names. Therefore “eternal� punishment is God’s punishment. This does not mean a unrepentant sinner will be punished forever.
You should also remember that Christ never told those who were crucified with him that they would go directly to heaven.
That is my response for now. I hope this will assist you in gaining a clearer understanding.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: How did Jesus take our punishment?
Post #92[Replying to post 87 by myth-one.com]
I'm confused... According to your described theology, every human that had ever existed prior to the sacrifice of Jesus lacked an ability to have their names written in the book of life on account of having been inescapably born as sinners. So, what was the theological purpose of postponing the sacrifice of Jesus until the mid-1st century? Would it have made more theological sense for Jesus to have been miraculously born from a virgin Eve immediately subsequent the fall, live a sinless life, and then be sacrificed in order to offer his inheritance to Adam, Eve, and all their decedents right out of the garden gate?
I'm confused... According to your described theology, every human that had ever existed prior to the sacrifice of Jesus lacked an ability to have their names written in the book of life on account of having been inescapably born as sinners. So, what was the theological purpose of postponing the sacrifice of Jesus until the mid-1st century? Would it have made more theological sense for Jesus to have been miraculously born from a virgin Eve immediately subsequent the fall, live a sinless life, and then be sacrificed in order to offer his inheritance to Adam, Eve, and all their decedents right out of the garden gate?
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Post #93
Jesus paid the price?
Paid the price to who? Himself?
If Jesus is God then he killed himself to pay himself?
What kind of God do you think He is? Psycho?
He punished himself because the things he made disobeyed him. Yeah....like I would kill myself if the plate I made wouldn't hold food like I wanted it to. Rolling my eyes
Paid the price to who? Himself?
If Jesus is God then he killed himself to pay himself?
What kind of God do you think He is? Psycho?
He punished himself because the things he made disobeyed him. Yeah....like I would kill myself if the plate I made wouldn't hold food like I wanted it to. Rolling my eyes
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Post #94
So, it was Jesus who took my punishment? Would someone who is in contact with Jesus please tell him it's not nice to take other people's stuff without permission? I've been looking all over the place for my punishment and was worried I'd misplaced it somewhere! The apple surely doesn't fall far from the tree because I heard this Jesus guy's dad is doing hard-time in isolation for burglarizing the home of some poor newlyweds where the husband reported that they were disappointed to discover that his young bride's virginity had been stolen right from under their noses. Fortunately, the authorities eventually located the woman's virginity and had it returned. Next thing you know, Jesus and his dad along with their ghostly TV lawyer will probably try to sue us all for defamation. I kept telling people that we shouldn't ever trust anyone recommended by Donald Trump, but did they listen?
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Post #95
Dear JW,
The following is some of my response to your post dated of August 26, 2019:
You said:
Whatever Adam's reasoning was, it was faulty! One does not help fulfill Gods purpose by disobeying his commands, one cannot correct a wrong by committing another. So even if he had been reasoning,: "If Eve dies because of what she has done, how will the divine mandate to be fruitful and fill the earth be obeyed?" or "If Eve dies I'll be all alone. Again!" Adam should have had confidence in His father who had previously declared "It is not good for man to be alone" ultimately not to leave him in that position. God Gave him Eve he could have given him Sheila, if Adam had been trusting and willing to give up another rib he would have saved mankind a lot of heartache and suffering.
Whatever he does, Almighty God can always find a way to fulfill his purpose without violating his own principles or compromising his loving acts towards the faithful. Whether Eve would have been allowed to have children before she died or some other solution, we don't know. And sadly we never will because Adam rebelled and took the whole human race down with him in the ultimate act of betrayal - choosing a woman over his Creator.
JW
Some of my responses:
I think you should examine the account of the creation more carefully i.e.
Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
We should observe that God first COMMANDED Adam, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
We should clearly observe that every thing which the Lord created was
very good. So, not only was the tree of life very good, but also the tree of knowledge was also very good. This being the case was partaking of the tree of knowledge in fact a good thing and perhaps a very wise choice?
Have you also considered what would happen if Adam and eve had then partaken of the tree of life and could then live forever?
If they had partaken of the tree of life then this act would have made God a liar, for then they would not have tasted of death.
Why did God place both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life in the center of the garden which He created?
It also seems very clear that God gave Adam and Eve the gift of agency in the garden.
Also we should remember that the garden of Eden was not heaven. This my observation unless you can show otherwise?
Best regards,
RW
The following is some of my response to your post dated of August 26, 2019:
You said:
Whatever Adam's reasoning was, it was faulty! One does not help fulfill Gods purpose by disobeying his commands, one cannot correct a wrong by committing another. So even if he had been reasoning,: "If Eve dies because of what she has done, how will the divine mandate to be fruitful and fill the earth be obeyed?" or "If Eve dies I'll be all alone. Again!" Adam should have had confidence in His father who had previously declared "It is not good for man to be alone" ultimately not to leave him in that position. God Gave him Eve he could have given him Sheila, if Adam had been trusting and willing to give up another rib he would have saved mankind a lot of heartache and suffering.
Whatever he does, Almighty God can always find a way to fulfill his purpose without violating his own principles or compromising his loving acts towards the faithful. Whether Eve would have been allowed to have children before she died or some other solution, we don't know. And sadly we never will because Adam rebelled and took the whole human race down with him in the ultimate act of betrayal - choosing a woman over his Creator.
JW
Some of my responses:
I think you should examine the account of the creation more carefully i.e.
Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
We should observe that God first COMMANDED Adam, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
We should clearly observe that every thing which the Lord created was
very good. So, not only was the tree of life very good, but also the tree of knowledge was also very good. This being the case was partaking of the tree of knowledge in fact a good thing and perhaps a very wise choice?
Have you also considered what would happen if Adam and eve had then partaken of the tree of life and could then live forever?
If they had partaken of the tree of life then this act would have made God a liar, for then they would not have tasted of death.
Why did God place both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life in the center of the garden which He created?
It also seems very clear that God gave Adam and Eve the gift of agency in the garden.
Also we should remember that the garden of Eden was not heaven. This my observation unless you can show otherwise?
Best regards,
RW
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Post #96
Revelations won wrote:It also seems very clear that God gave Adam and Eve the gift of agency in the garden.
.... This my observation unless you can show otherwise?
Why should I "show otherwise" ? If by "the gift of agency" you mean free will ie the ability to make moral choices, then I agree. So? Are you implying that fact nullifies anything I wrote?If so, what?
Revelations won wrote: Also we should remember that the garden of Eden was not heaven.
Yes I know. So?
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Post #97
Response to JW’s post of August 26, 2019
Dear JW,
I am posting a revised response to your post. It would appear that you are not prepared to answer the points raised in my previous reply.
The following are some of my responses to your post referenced above:
You said:
“Whatever Adam's reasoning was, it was faulty! One does not help fulfill Gods purpose by disobeying his commands, one cannot correct a wrong by committing another. So even if he had been reasoning,: "If Eve dies because of what she has done, how will the divine mandate to be fruitful and fill the earth be obeyed?" or "If Eve dies I'll be all alone. Again!" Adam should have had confidence in His father who had previously declared "It is not good for man to be alone" ultimately not to leave him in that position. God Gave him Eve he could have given him Sheila, if Adam had been trusting and willing to give up another rib he would have saved mankind a lot of heartache and suffering.
Whatever he does, Almighty God can always find a way to fulfill his purpose without violating his own principles or compromising his loving acts towards the faithful. Whether Eve would have been allowed to have children before she died or some other solution, we don't know. And sadly we never will because Adam rebelled and took the whole human race down with him in the ultimate act of betrayal - choosing a woman over his Creator.�
Some of my responses:
I think you should examine the account of the creation more carefully i.e.
Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
We should observe that God COMMANDED Adam, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
We should clearly observe that every thing which the Lord created
very good. So, not only was the tree of life very good, but also the tree of knowledge was also very good. This being the case was partaking of the tree of knowledge in fact a good thing and perhaps a very wise choice?
It should also be VERY CAREFULLY noted that God, in verse 17 above gave these instructions to Adam.
In verse 18 above it is very clear that Eve was not present with Adam since God had not yet made an helpmate for Adam.
Have you also considered what would happen if Adam and eve had then partaken of the tree of life and could then live forever?
If they had partaken of the tree of life then this act would have made God a liar, for then they would not have tasted of death.
Why did God place both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life in the center of the garden which He created?
It also seems very clear that God gave Adam and Eve the gift of agency in the garden.
It is also clear that they had no knowledge of good and evil while in the garden.
In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were not subject to death.
This being the case they would have been married eternally.
Are you prepared to explain the theology of eternal marriage on this earth?

Also we should remember that the garden of Eden was not heaven. This my observation unless you can show otherwise?
Best regards,
RW
Dear JW,
I am posting a revised response to your post. It would appear that you are not prepared to answer the points raised in my previous reply.
The following are some of my responses to your post referenced above:
You said:
“Whatever Adam's reasoning was, it was faulty! One does not help fulfill Gods purpose by disobeying his commands, one cannot correct a wrong by committing another. So even if he had been reasoning,: "If Eve dies because of what she has done, how will the divine mandate to be fruitful and fill the earth be obeyed?" or "If Eve dies I'll be all alone. Again!" Adam should have had confidence in His father who had previously declared "It is not good for man to be alone" ultimately not to leave him in that position. God Gave him Eve he could have given him Sheila, if Adam had been trusting and willing to give up another rib he would have saved mankind a lot of heartache and suffering.
Whatever he does, Almighty God can always find a way to fulfill his purpose without violating his own principles or compromising his loving acts towards the faithful. Whether Eve would have been allowed to have children before she died or some other solution, we don't know. And sadly we never will because Adam rebelled and took the whole human race down with him in the ultimate act of betrayal - choosing a woman over his Creator.�
Some of my responses:
I think you should examine the account of the creation more carefully i.e.
Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
We should observe that God COMMANDED Adam, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
We should clearly observe that every thing which the Lord created
very good. So, not only was the tree of life very good, but also the tree of knowledge was also very good. This being the case was partaking of the tree of knowledge in fact a good thing and perhaps a very wise choice?
It should also be VERY CAREFULLY noted that God, in verse 17 above gave these instructions to Adam.
In verse 18 above it is very clear that Eve was not present with Adam since God had not yet made an helpmate for Adam.
Have you also considered what would happen if Adam and eve had then partaken of the tree of life and could then live forever?
If they had partaken of the tree of life then this act would have made God a liar, for then they would not have tasted of death.
Why did God place both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life in the center of the garden which He created?
It also seems very clear that God gave Adam and Eve the gift of agency in the garden.
It is also clear that they had no knowledge of good and evil while in the garden.
In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were not subject to death.
This being the case they would have been married eternally.
Are you prepared to explain the theology of eternal marriage on this earth?

Also we should remember that the garden of Eden was not heaven. This my observation unless you can show otherwise?
Best regards,
RW
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Re: How did Jesus take our punishment?
Post #98.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahashua, The Anointing.
do you believe - is it saying the HOLY SPIRIT was sanctified by the obedience of Yahashua ?
Just wondering if this was God's intention - to sanctify his own Holy Spirit in Yahashua, by his obedience , and also to sprinkle his own blood, for the salvation of man.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahashua, The Anointing.
do you believe - is it saying the HOLY SPIRIT was sanctified by the obedience of Yahashua ?
Just wondering if this was God's intention - to sanctify his own Holy Spirit in Yahashua, by his obedience , and also to sprinkle his own blood, for the salvation of man.
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Re: How did Jesus take our punishment?
Post #99I don't see how any of this answers the question I made in the opening post. Care to explain further?Falling Light 101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:47 pm .
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahashua, The Anointing.
do you believe - is it saying the HOLY SPIRIT was sanctified by the obedience of Yahashua ?
Just wondering if this was God's intention - to sanctify his own Holy Spirit in Yahashua, by his obedience , and also to sprinkle his own blood, for the salvation of man.
Our punishment will either be eternal torture or permanent death as a result of fire. We will not be resurrected and hanging out with God in Heaven. Yet Jesus, apparently is, right now with God in Heaven as his right hand man.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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Re: How did Jesus take our punishment?
Post #100From the OP:
Unprovenly.How did Jesus take our punishment?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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