Why isn't everyone a Christian?

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:51 am

Post your personal individual perspectives on the following questions:

Christians:

1. Why do you think non-Christians do not believe that Jesus Christ is God and that the Bible holds the Truth about humanity?

2. Why isn't everyone a Christian?

3. Why do you think THEY think they don't believe?

Non-Christians:

1. How do you think a Christian would answer questions 1 and 2 above?

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:04 pm

GreenLight311 wrote:
jimspeiser wrote:
But we learned from Greenlight that hate is sometimes justified. After all, God hates. Please, feel free to discuss this amongst yourselves so we can all get it straight.
Hold up here, buddy. I'm glad I'm checking out this thread so nobody misrepresents me behind my back.

What you say is true and what samuelbb7 says is true. God is opposed to those who hate others. Hate is sometimes justified. Hate is justified when the object of one's hate is sin. That's the key, here. Hate is not ever justified against a person.

Was not the purging of the Earth by the Noachian flood an act of hatred on God's part. against people? Oh, I forgot, God has a different standard of morality - in defiance of the doctrine of Absolute Good.

jimspeiser wrote: I'm sure Murray will be pleased to hear that he has been compared to a child molester.
I have no idea why you linked that post, and I further have no idea why you made up "Murray". God wasn't created. God is the infinite being that has always existed.

Murray says otherwise. And prove that I made him up.

jimspeiser wrote: "You can do as you please, as long as what you please, pleases me. Love me or I'll send you to an eternity of torture. Hey, it's your choice!" How is this distinguishable from extortion?
You live under governmental law, don't you? "Don't kill anyone or you'll go to jail!" "Don't steal anything or you'll go to jail!" There are laws to be followed anywhere you go. Well, God has laws too. That's not extortion. God is Just - and He says, if you break the law you will be punished.

So we're NOT free to do as we choose, either under the government's law or God's law. That's the point I was getting at. Freedom to choose punishment is not freedom. Oh, and, incidentally, if I don't like the laws of the country I'm living in, I can move. What can I do if I don't like God's laws? I didn't sign up for this, remember....

samuelbb7 wrote: Parents teach children to fear them so they will not die by doing stupid things. But as we grow that fear turns to love as we learn to understand why they directed us. So it is the same with GOD.
jimspeiser wrote: I sincerely believe that all religious analogies involving children are invalid, since children are not capable of cogent thought and grownups are.
I think you should reconsider. You just made the analogy yourself! So, that's the point: Compared to God, we are not capable of cogent thought (only in this comparison the gap is much greater). The comparison is completely analogous.

"Cogent" is not a relative term. Our thought process is either cogent or it isn't, there is no "compared to." We may ultimately arrive at the wrong answers, but there is usually nothing wrong with the way we got there.

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:21 pm

jimspeiser: Was not the purging of the Earth by the Noachian flood an act of hatred on God's part. against people? Oh, I forgot, God has a different standard of morality - in defiance of the doctrine of Absolute Good.

Please take note of this argument:

I feel like I post this one on every response... then it gets ignored.
God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have. Jesus Christ was God and Man, so we follow His example... not God the Father's example.

It is not possible for any person to behave like God the Father. We simply don't have what it takes.

jimspeiser: Murray says otherwise. And prove that I made him up.

What created Murray?

jimspeiser: So we're NOT free to do as we choose, either under the government's law or God's law. That's the point I was getting at. Freedom to choose punishment is not freedom. Oh, and, incidentally, if I don't like the laws of the country I'm living in, I can move. What can I do if I don't like God's laws? I didn't sign up for this, remember....

Fine. Under your definition, you are not free. You are not free right now. Nobody is free. Ever. But that kind of eliminates this point entirely because it no longer has a point.

You didn't sign up to be born, but that happened. Are you going to object to that?

jimspeiser: "Cogent" is not a relative term. Our thought process is either cogent or it isn't, there is no "compared to." We may ultimately arrive at the wrong answers, but there is usually nothing wrong with the way we got there.

I believe it is relative in this comparison. Compared to God, our arguments are not intellectual, reasoning, or convincing. The gap is gigantic. Many of these types of comparisons are made, even in the Bible.

Dictionary.com
cogent
Appealing to the intellect or powers of reasoning; convincing: a cogent argument.

mrmufin · Post by **mrmufin** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:36 pm

GreenLight311 wrote:You live under governmental law, don't you? "Don't kill anyone or you'll go to jail!" "Don't steal anything or you'll go to jail!" There are laws to be followed anywhere you go. Well, God has laws too. That's not extortion. God is Just - and He says, if you break the law you will be punished.

Some might suggest that in civilized societies, just powers are derived with the consent of the governed. In civilized societies, there are variety of different punishments designed to be on par with the commission of the crime. This is why a convicted murderer will likely get more time behind bars than, say, a convicted tax evader. God, on the other hand, has a "one punishment for all offenses" legal model which is curiously devoid of things like due process, full disclosure, jury by peers, representation by counsel, etc.

Regards,
mrmufin

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:58 pm

Many people FEAR the government. Many people FEAR punishments handing down by the Government. One being the DEATH penalty. FEAR is not LOVE FEAR is FEAR.

If you are afraid you will go to hell, then you FEAR hell, THUS you FEAR the one who will put you there. Simple deduction.

You can LOVE you father and FEAR him, because you are a child and he has control over your life. Notice I said because you are a child, when you GROW up and become an adult you no longer FEAR your father you simply LOVE him.

There are children who ONLY FEAR their fathers and don't love him, children molested by their father or parents or abused by them FEAR them. That FEAR isn't reverence or love

M'okay... dictionary.com says;

fear n.

1.a A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
1. b A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
3. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
4. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
I shall simpy say I go along with 3 alone

So we're NOT free to do as we choose, either under the government's law or God's law. That's the point I was getting at. Freedom to choose punishment is not freedom.

So what of the people who have the ability to break the law? Surely they realise hat they may do will result in punishment, yet they still do it. Don't they have free will as well? Unless just today the world was turned into some different place where everyone has suddenly become incapable of choosing something that would result in punishment.....

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:24 pm

GreenLight311 wrote:
jimspeiser: Was not the purging of the Earth by the Noachian flood an act of hatred on God's part. against people? Oh, I forgot, God has a different standard of morality - in defiance of the doctrine of Absolute Good.
Please take note of this argument:

I feel like I post this one on every response... then it gets ignored.
God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have. Jesus Christ was God and Man, so we follow His example... not God the Father's example.

Its not ignored, it's just contradictory. Is there Absolute Goodness or isn't there?

It is not possible for any person to behave like God the Father. We simply don't have what it takes.

You got that right. I don't have what it takes to sick she-bears on children, or wipe out a race in a flood....and as I said before, I would never, under any circumstances, send even my worst enemy to Hell.

jimspeiser: Murray says otherwise. And prove that I made him up.
What created Murray?

Murray says, "What do you think I am, a philosopher? How the heck should I know? I don't claim omniscience...unlike some people we know..."

You didn't sign up to be born, but that happened. Are you going to object to that?

What on earth does that have to do with God supposedly having absolute power over me? When he produces a contract, we'll talk.

jimspeiser: "Cogent" is not a relative term. Our thought process is either cogent or it isn't, there is no "compared to." We may ultimately arrive at the wrong answers, but there is usually nothing wrong with the way we got there.
I believe it is relative in this comparison. Compared to God, our arguments are not intellectual, reasoning, or convincing. The gap is gigantic. Many of these types of comparisons are made, even in the Bible.

You don't seem to realize that the bigger and more advanced you paint your god, the more ridiculous it is to believe he gets jealous, wipes out races, changes his mind, or cares one whit whether anyone prays to him or not. More contradiction, more invalidity.

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:05 pm

jimspeiser: Was not the purging of the Earth by the Noachian flood an act of hatred on God's part. against people? Oh, I forgot, God has a different standard of morality - in defiance of the doctrine of Absolute Good.

GreenLight311 wrote:
Please take note of this argument:

I feel like I post this one on every response... then it gets ignored.
God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have. Jesus Christ was God and Man, so we follow His example... not God the Father's example.

jimspeiser: Its not ignored, it's just contradictory. Is there Absolute Goodness or isn't there?

There may be a miscommunication, but there is no contradiction here. There is absolute goodness, but with our limited human intellect, wisdom, understanding, logic, and knowledge - unless we follow the example of Jesus Christ and the INSTRUCTION of God the Father (not example), there would be no way for us to immitate Him and know if our actions were good or evil... because we would not have the intellect, wisdom, understanding, logic, and knowledge that He has.

jimspeiser: You got that right. I don't have what it takes to sick she-bears on children, or wipe out a race in a flood....and as I said before, I would never, under any circumstances, send even my worst enemy to Hell.

Not true. I know a circumstance where you would. If you had God's power and God's wisdom... you would in fact do everything that He is doing and has already done. Exactly the same.

jimspeiser: You don't seem to realize that the bigger and more advanced you paint your god, the more ridiculous it is to believe he gets jealous, wipes out races, changes his mind, or cares one whit whether anyone prays to him or not.

Well, I'm going to go ahead and make the claim that because you don't have the Holy Spirit, these things and God are beyond your understanding. I truly believe that you don't even have the ability to understand these things - the same as I didn't before God changed me.

So, maybe you shouldn't start with these things - reasoning God. Maybe you should start with seeking to know Him by praying and asking if He exists.

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:54 pm

GreenLight311 wrote: I feel like I post this one on every response... then it gets ignored.
God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have. Jesus Christ was God and Man, so we follow His example... not God the Father's example.

jimspeiser: Its not ignored, it's just contradictory. Is there Absolute Goodness or isn't there?
There may be a miscommunication, but there is no contradiction here. There is absolute goodness, but with our limited human intellect, wisdom, understanding, logic, and knowledge - unless we follow the example of Jesus Christ and the INSTRUCTION of God the Father (not example), there would be no way for us to immitate Him and know if our actions were good or evil... because we would not have the intellect, wisdom, understanding, logic, and knowledge that He has.

Which could be used to excuse absolutely anything he does, no matter how vile. Morally bankrupt.

I expect never to hear the term "moral relativism" as a pejorative again, since you have proven that it applies to God as well. "Morality is relative to whether or not you are God."

jimspeiser: You got that right. I don't have what it takes to sick she-bears on children, or wipe out a race in a flood....and as I said before, I would never, under any circumstances, send even my worst enemy to Hell.
Not true. I know a circumstance where you would. If you had God's power and God's wisdom... you would in fact do everything that He is doing and has already done. Exactly the same.

I believe you've made your point clear. As have I.

jimspeiser: You don't seem to realize that the bigger and more advanced you paint your god, the more ridiculous it is to believe he gets jealous, wipes out races, changes his mind, or cares one whit whether anyone prays to him or not.
Well, I'm going to go ahead and make the claim that because you don't have the Holy Spirit, these things and God are beyond your understanding. I truly believe that you don't even have the ability to understand these things - the same as I didn't before God changed me.

Oh, so you understand these things? You understand why God wiped out the human race, or why he turned she-bears on children? Or are you saying that you understand that you don't understand, and in your ignorance of the divine, will willingly accept whatever he does, no matter what?

So, maybe you shouldn't start with these things - reasoning God. Maybe you should start with seeking to know Him by praying and asking if He exists.

Been there, done that. got the t-shirt.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 pm

GreenLight311 wrote:
I feel like I post this one on every response... then it gets ignored.
God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have. Jesus Christ was God and Man, so we follow His example... not God the Father's example.

Ignored...probably because it makes no sense, is unsupported and unsupportable. You have constantly and consistently claimed to have 'evidence' yet provided none. God is "unknowable", yet you can claim "God has powers, reasoning, wisdom, and much much more that we do not have" How do YOU know this?

GreenLight311 wrote: There may be a miscommunication, but there is no contradiction here. There is absolute goodness, but with our limited human intellect, wisdom, understanding, logic, and knowledge - unless we follow the example of Jesus Christ and the INSTRUCTION of God the Father (not example),

So in the case of your god it is a matter of "do as i say not as I do". As for the Jeus myth...we should do as Jesus allegedly did? Or as those who claim to speak for him advise we should do?

Please give me a valid example of 'absolute goodness' that exists outside the confines of your belief system.

GreenLight311 wrote: Well, I'm going to go ahead and make the claim that because you don't have the Holy Spirit, these things and God are beyond your understanding. I truly believe that you don't even have the ability to understand these things - the same as I didn't before God changed me.

Again I ask you...how do you know it is god that has communicated this to you and not some other supernatural being you is perpertrating some gigantic joke.

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:47 am

bernee51: So in the case of your god it is a matter of "do as i say not as I do". As for the Jeus myth...we should do as Jesus allegedly did? Or as those who claim to speak for him advise we should do?

Jesus is God - so when we follow His example, we are doing as God did. As for the "do as I say not as I do" - in this case, that could be correct. Is there something wrong with that?

Should an adult father tell his 4 year old son/daughter to jump into the deep end of a pool because he did?

Or should he tell that son/daughter to drive his car because he does?

Or should he tell that son/daughter to climb a mountain or ski down a steep slope because he can and does?

God is our Father. He can do things that we can't do. When He shows us what to do... we can and should do it. He showed us as Jesus Christ.

bernee51: Please give me a valid example of 'absolute goodness' that exists outside the confines of your belief system.

Could you rephrase your question? I'm not sure exactly what you mean... or what exactly you're looking for. Thanks

bernee51: Again I ask you...how do you know it is god that has communicated this to you and not some other supernatural being you is perpertrating some gigantic joke.

This is a good question. I've had a few people ask me this before.
There are lots of answers. The best one is, "You'd know the answer if you knew God." Other answers are that God speaks to me and tells me. He places knowledge of Himself inside me. He shows Himself through the events that take place in my life... and my beliefs are confirmed by the exact fulfillment of what the Bible says, along with multiple other people that share my conviciton.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:16 am

GreenLight311] [color=darkred]Should an adult father tell his 4 year old son/daughter to jump into the deep end of a pool because he did? Or should he tell that son/daughter to drive his car because he does? Or should he tell that son/daughter to climb a mountain or ski down a steep slope because he can and does?[/color][/quote] You certainly have a particular love for straw men GL - this is a classic. We are not talking about the relationship between a human father and a pre-rational infant. You comparing this to a relationship between a supernatural being and a rational adult. [quote= wrote:
bernee51: Please give me a valid example of 'absolute goodness' that exists outside the confines of your belief system.
Could you rephrase your question? I'm not sure exactly what you mean... or what exactly you're looking for. Thanks

I will give it a go...you claim(ed) the existence of 'absolute goodness'. Can you give an example of same. What I am asking for is one which is 'objective' i.e. exists independent of a belief system. One which applies across the board.

[quote="GreenLight311]
bernee51: Again I ask you...how do you know it is god that has communicated this to you and not some other supernatural being you is perpertrating some gigantic joke.
This is a good question. I've had a few people ask me this before.
There are lots of answers. The best one is, "You'd know the answer if you knew God." Other answers are that God speaks to me and tells me. He places knowledge of Himself inside me. He shows Himself through the events that take place in my life... and my beliefs are confirmed by the exact fulfillment of what the Bible says, along with multiple other people that share my conviciton.

That is all well and good - but he only exists for you. Your perception is unique. This is your opinion - it does not make it a fact. The opinions of others who may share your conviction are not evidence (it is a logical fallacy to claim so).

All that notwithstanding...it does not deal with the issue of whether or not the particular supernatural being whom you claim shows himself to you is in fact 'god'. If a believe in Odin as the supreme deity was to claim exactly the same as you - who should I believe. if i beliee neither and seek for myself and come up with the answer that god is a myth - why is my opinion any less valid than yours?