To you, who was Jesus? Was he a man? Was He God? Was he simply a fictional character? Or was he something else to you?
Why? What lead you to this belief/conclusion?
Who was Jesus?
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chrispalasz
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chrispalasz
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Post #61
Thank you. Nope. My mom is a Christian (a Catholic)... but God did not use her to bring me to salvation. I am not Catholic.Bro Dave: GreenLight311, you are a good person, and I respect that you are willing to stand and defend the religion you probably inherited from you parent.
I would have loved god very much... perhaps - very sinfully. And in that life, had I died a Muslim, I would not be in God's beautiful Grace, but I would be in Hell where I belong, even now.Bro Dave: Had you been born a Muslim, you would have loved God just as much, only use other trappings.
This is not in dispute. What is in dispute is who, exactly, those finite "unique kids" are. Not everyone, that's for sure... and not even most people. My prayers go out for mercy upon their souls.Bro Dave: God Loves every single one of his very finite, unique kids.
More than a religion - Christianity is Life itself. All people that are separated from God, all people that do not have the Holy Spirit, they are walking dead... living in the body but dead in the spirit. As far as inferiority goes, I don't believe that word even works here. Can facts be superior to lies? I don't know... they seem too different to be compared in such a way.Bro Dave: He did not create any exclusionary religion that looks down on all otheres as inferior. Get over it!
If this were true, then the morality that Jesus created would completely break down. A man could cheat on his wife and it would not be sin because he would be "loving" another woman. Isn't that love? In fact, nobody would ever have to get married. Everyone could just jump from partner to partner and have pre-marital sex. Nothing would be wrong with that, right? So long as it stayed mutual, it would just be mutual love.Bro Dave:
If it isn't openly loving, it is not from God. Jesus holds the door to the Infinite open to all who will enter. Love is the measure. Yes, it was evident in how Jesus died, but more inportantly, it was the measure of how he LIVED!
Now, I don't know if you object to these things: premarital sex and adultery. Do you object to them?
I have no idea what you mean by this. Care to explain? Thanks!Bro Dave:
If only the world would begin using this filter, we would see a transformation that would knock your hat off!
~GL
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"Evolution must be the best-known yet worst-understood of all scientific theories."
Blog http://www.teslinkorea.blogspot.com
"Beware the sound of one hand clapping"
"Evolution must be the best-known yet worst-understood of all scientific theories."
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MagusYanam
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Post #62
Greenlight311:
You seem to have missed my point entirely. That verse was meant to point out that the judge of humankind is indeed a merciful one, who does not desire their condemnation, but their salvation.
Moreover, thank you for pointing out the following verse. St. John 12:48 actually helps to strengthen my point. 'The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.' The word of Jesus will be the rule of salvation: that God's grace was unconditional and complete, something Jesus tried time and again to show to his disciples through the parables. That is the judgmental word, and through it we are all saved. What St. John 12 says, indeed, can be a bit problematic theologically, and perhaps I could have come up with a better example.
Look at it another way: God is almighty and all-forbearing. If someone rejects His grace, it is God's nature (as shown through the Resurrection) to reaffirm that grace. If that person goes to Hell through his/her own actions or beliefs, that is to say that God was not powerful enough or not forbearing enough to save him/her. This is not acceptable - if not powerful enough, then not God, if not forbearing enough, then not the God of Jesus (and thus of Christianity). God wouldn't allow His divine Will to be thwarted by the rebellion of a single, mortal soul!
I depend on Scripture, true, but also church tradition and the power of my own reason, which is of divine nature itself. I cannot reconcile to my powers of reason that Gandhi, for example, (a paragon of virtue himself) would go to Hell simply for being Hindu.
Think about what I write next time - and try not to be so flippant in its dismissal, or condescending in tone.
You seem to have missed my point entirely. That verse was meant to point out that the judge of humankind is indeed a merciful one, who does not desire their condemnation, but their salvation.
Moreover, thank you for pointing out the following verse. St. John 12:48 actually helps to strengthen my point. 'The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.' The word of Jesus will be the rule of salvation: that God's grace was unconditional and complete, something Jesus tried time and again to show to his disciples through the parables. That is the judgmental word, and through it we are all saved. What St. John 12 says, indeed, can be a bit problematic theologically, and perhaps I could have come up with a better example.
Look at it another way: God is almighty and all-forbearing. If someone rejects His grace, it is God's nature (as shown through the Resurrection) to reaffirm that grace. If that person goes to Hell through his/her own actions or beliefs, that is to say that God was not powerful enough or not forbearing enough to save him/her. This is not acceptable - if not powerful enough, then not God, if not forbearing enough, then not the God of Jesus (and thus of Christianity). God wouldn't allow His divine Will to be thwarted by the rebellion of a single, mortal soul!
I depend on Scripture, true, but also church tradition and the power of my own reason, which is of divine nature itself. I cannot reconcile to my powers of reason that Gandhi, for example, (a paragon of virtue himself) would go to Hell simply for being Hindu.
Think about what I write next time - and try not to be so flippant in its dismissal, or condescending in tone.
Last edited by MagusYanam on Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post #63
PTI,
Magnus, it sounds like you are positing the doctrine of Universal Restoration, could this be the case? Scriptures teach unlimited grace, unlimited atonement, with limited application.
UR suggests that since grace and atonement is sufficient for all that it is unilateraterally applied to all - this is contrary to scripture, as it tells us specifically that not all will see the glory of the kingdom of God, and that there will be those who will be thrown into the 'lake of fire'.
Without being condescending or flippant, I suggest that the UR doctrine is a doctrine of compelled salvation, the denial of free will, and contrary to scripture.
Magnus, it sounds like you are positing the doctrine of Universal Restoration, could this be the case? Scriptures teach unlimited grace, unlimited atonement, with limited application.
UR suggests that since grace and atonement is sufficient for all that it is unilateraterally applied to all - this is contrary to scripture, as it tells us specifically that not all will see the glory of the kingdom of God, and that there will be those who will be thrown into the 'lake of fire'.
Without being condescending or flippant, I suggest that the UR doctrine is a doctrine of compelled salvation, the denial of free will, and contrary to scripture.
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MagusYanam
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Post #64
That is a point with which I respectfully disagree. The universalist position as I understand it is not a denial of free will, because from my experience (which, I grant you, is limited) I don't think it possible for any human being (whose free will automatically - if you will pardon the expression - provides them a choice and a 'moral sense') to be so consistently lost as to make every time a choice contrary to their moral sense.
The salvation of the world was God's will, and he made his will manifest in Jesus Christ. And his ways are mysterious. If someone was ready to give himself over to salvation and was run over by a truck without actually having done so, would God balk at being thwarted by the power of death? I would hope not - God has overcome death before.
Also, I have come to see that there is truth in other faiths that lead to the same conclusions as Christianity. The Golden Rule is universal, for example, and each tradition has its own variant. If someone follows Jesus' ways without actually seeing who it is they follow, are they condemned from their own human faults? I would argue that God is not so petty as to nitpick over this point.
If Jesus expected Peter to forgive his neighbour not once, and not seven times, but seventy times seven, how many more times can we expect God to forgive us our shortcomings?
The salvation of the world was God's will, and he made his will manifest in Jesus Christ. And his ways are mysterious. If someone was ready to give himself over to salvation and was run over by a truck without actually having done so, would God balk at being thwarted by the power of death? I would hope not - God has overcome death before.
Also, I have come to see that there is truth in other faiths that lead to the same conclusions as Christianity. The Golden Rule is universal, for example, and each tradition has its own variant. If someone follows Jesus' ways without actually seeing who it is they follow, are they condemned from their own human faults? I would argue that God is not so petty as to nitpick over this point.
If Jesus expected Peter to forgive his neighbour not once, and not seven times, but seventy times seven, how many more times can we expect God to forgive us our shortcomings?
Post #65
I understand your view. I had thought you were agruing that view from scripture, but I see now you are not. No harm, no foul. Everyone is entitled to what they believe, I would only debate if one suggested that scripture teaches something it does not.
Post #66
Greenlight311, you take my breath away! 
That anyone could hold the views you espouse, while claiming to represent God's loving message, is mind boggling! 
Fear guilt and vengence are bludgens used by mortal men, not by God. His arms are open to all. He does not "hate", as it is simply a mortal trate, not a divine one. He, being Source of all Love, understand, and forgives even our immature assigning of inferior human traits to Him.
What a concept...
Bro Dave
That anyone could hold the views you espouse, while claiming to represent God's loving message, is mind boggling! Fear guilt and vengence are bludgens used by mortal men, not by God. His arms are open to all. He does not "hate", as it is simply a mortal trate, not a divine one. He, being Source of all Love, understand, and forgives even our immature assigning of inferior human traits to Him.
What?!?! My mind is reeling with trying to impose a logical connection within your agrument! Please do explaing the connection with total loss of moral values and shifting the focus to how Jesus lived his life.If this were true, then the morality that Jesus created would completely break down. A man could cheat on his wife and it would not be sin because he would be "loving" another woman. Isn't that love? In fact, nobody would ever have to get married. Everyone could just jump from partner to partner and have pre-marital sex. Nothing would be wrong with that, right? So long as it stayed mutual, it would just be mutual love.Bro Dave:
If it isn't openly loving, it is not from God. Jesus holds the door to the Infinite open to all who will enter. Love is the measure. Yes, it was evident in how Jesus died, but more inportantly, it was the measure of how he LIVED!
Now, I don't know if you object to these things: premarital sex and adultery. Do you object to them?
What I am saying, is if the world would use the filter of a Loving God, being a universal concept, and acknowledge that only the names we assign God are different, we would quickly see we all have the SAME loving Father, and we his children, are truly brothers an sisters, not the "religious enemy" who should be destroyed.I have no idea what you mean by this. Care to explain? Thanks!Bro Dave:
If only the world would begin using this filter, we would see a transformation that would knock your hat off!
What a concept...
Bro Dave
Post #67
Dave, what do you base this on? Certainly not Scripture. Show me where it says God does not hate, what about sin? Does He not hate sin?Bro Dave wrote:Fear guilt and vengeance are bludgens used by mortal men, not by God. His arms are open to all. He does not "hate", as it is simply a mortal trate, not a divine one
Vengeance? Does scripture not tell us: "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord"?
You speak of God as LOVE, but do not accept that while He is Perfect Love, He is also Perfect JUSTICE. Mankind condemned itself with the fall of Adam, the wages of sin is death - there is no escaping that fact, and the fact that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. All have sinned, and all have earned their death.
God does not condemn, we have condemned ourselves. God as perfect justice recognized our condemnation and gave us a path to salvation through His loving grace. The idea that because God loves us that He would never let us reap our just punishment is bogus and scriptural.
Post #68
You said, "If it isn't openly loving, it is not from God." That naturally leads to, "If it is openly loving, it is from God." If premarital sex or adultery are "openly loving," then by that reasoning they must be from God - which is the opposite of what the whole of Scripture teaches.Bro Dave wrote:GreenLight311 wrote:Bro Dave wrote:
If it isn't openly loving, it is not from God. Jesus holds the door to the Infinite open to all who will enter. Love is the measure. Yes, it was evident in how Jesus died, but more inportantly, it was the measure of how he LIVED!
If this were true, then the morality that Jesus created would completely break down. A man could cheat on his wife and it would not be sin because he would be "loving" another woman. Isn't that love? In fact, nobody would ever have to get married. Everyone could just jump from partner to partner and have pre-marital sex. Nothing would be wrong with that, right? So long as it stayed mutual, it would just be mutual love.
Now, I don't know if you object to these things: premarital sex and adultery. Do you object to them?
What?!?! My mind is reeling with trying to impose a logical connection within your agrument! Please do explaing the connection with total loss of moral values and shifting the focus to how Jesus lived his life.
"Bearing shame and scoffing rude,
In my place condemned He stood;
Sealed my pardon with His blood;
Hallelujah! What a Saviour!"
- Philip P. Bliss, 1838-1876
In my place condemned He stood;
Sealed my pardon with His blood;
Hallelujah! What a Saviour!"
- Philip P. Bliss, 1838-1876
Post #69
WHOA! Are we twisting "openly loving" into SEX??? I sincerely hope that there is more to being "openly loving" than an animal sex act! Christians seem to have to hate sex. This is, or should be, a beautiful intimate sharing between loving partners. That we have perverted it into something less, is hardly God's fault.[quote="hannahjoy]You said, "If it isn't openly loving, it is not from God." That naturally leads to, "If it is openly loving, it is from God." If premarital sex or adultery are "openly loving," then by that reasoning they must be from God - which is the opposite of what the whole of Scripture teaches.
Let me state for the record, I openly love all my brothers and sisters!
I suspect you are simply unable to deny what I have said about God being the source of all Love, and not capable of being unloving in any way. His role as judge is overridden by his loving mercy as our Father.
Bro Dave
Post #70
It was passages such as those, that finally opened my eyes! I knew in my heart that God was Loving, and that his Love, being a personal experience, trumped whatever anyone had written claiming to be God's word. It is a magnificent ruler, and serves me well every time I use it.RevJP: Dave, what do you base this on? Certainly not Scripture. Show me where it says God does not hate, what about sin? Does He not hate sin?Bro Dave wrote:Fear guilt and vengeance are bludgens used by mortal men, not by God. His arms are open to all. He does not "hate", as it is simply a mortal trate, not a divine one
Vengeance? Does scripture not tell us: "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord"?
God's role as judge is overruled by his Loving mercy as Father.You speak of God as LOVE, but do not accept that while He is Perfect Love, He is also Perfect JUSTICE.
Guilt and fear are not a part of God's loving plan. We are guilty only of starting as imperfect, the way God made us. God, like any Father, seeks only our good and our growth, in which He participates. It is that partnership of sharing that is the focus of our very existance. Mankind has manipulated all the truths God tried to share with us, for the elevation of position and power over God's children. Our greatest sin, is that we contiinue to believe that God would be/do what religious books claim of Him.Mankind condemned itself with the fall of Adam, the wages of sin is death - there is no escaping that fact, and the fact that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. All have sinned, and all have earned their death.
RevJP, I believe you to be a good and honest man. Please, wash your heart of all beliefs that God bears any of our human frailties. May I suggest that you ask Him yourself? Go without bias, and humbly ask God whether what I have said is true or not.... I am confident He will take your hand, and show you His loving nature in ways that you will never doubt that Love again!God does not condemn, we have condemned ourselves. God as perfect justice recognized our condemnation and gave us a path to salvation through His loving grace. The idea that because God loves us that He would never let us reap our just punishment is bogus and scriptural.
Bro Dave
