Why refer to God as "He"?

[DanMRaymond]

dangerdan & Arch & if there's somebody I'm missing:

By referring to Jesus Christ as a "she" you are denying Christianity and mocking it in those very words. You are also making a blatantly false claim and statement. There are so many reasons why the Christian God cannot be referred to as a "she", I could write a multiple page paper on it.

The fact that you find that to be a mockery is quite ridiculous. I invite you to explain since apparently there are so many reasons.

[Piper Plexed]

Well, I guess I'm sexist too! Thanks for informing me of that.
At least, I believe that in most cases men should have the leadership roles, and women should be the followers, helpers, and supporters, as equals with different roles.
Only, I'm a girl - I didn't know girls could be sexist, but if you say so.

I wouldn't want to vote for a woman president, but it might be the lesser of two evils in the near future.

Hannah Joy

I don't think I would necessarily call your position a sexist one, more of an enabler. No group can rule without the consent of the ruled, which is what your position represents. It is unfortunate, though certainly far from unexpected. Hmmm, I think in the history of slavery, your position would liken to that of a house slave.

I noticed your age is that of a woman and find it interesting that you consider yourself a girl. I must wonder why, with your separate but equal perspective, you are compelled to further diminish your value?

[dangerdan]

Ok, we are getting a little off topic, but I still think it all ties in.

I'd rather be a sexist than a feminist.

This is truly a strange comment. I really didn’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read it. I was just thinking of all the work and sacrifice that some women had to go through to get some sort of equal right…

In regard to “different rolls”, what does that mean Greenlight? That rolls in society should be determined by gender as opposed to competence, intelligence, ability, etc. Is that what is meant by “different rolls”? Or are women naturally not as competent in leadership rolls? Is that what you mean? If so, then yes, that’s just good old fashioned sexism.

[hannahjoy]

The point of this thread was whether the God Christians believe in should be referred to as "He" or "She". Since Christian beliefs are determined by the Bible, and the Bible consistently refers to God as "He", that is the proper term to use when discussing Christian beliefs. How difficult can that be? If I were to ask someone to write my biography, and to refer to me as "she", it would be disrespectful to insist on calling me "he". Even in fiction that would be incorrect - Tolkien chose for Aragorn to be "he", and to refer to Aragorn as "she" is simply incorrect.
The specific roles of men and women are not really a part of this topic, though they are related. If you want to discuss them, start another thread.

dangerdan wrote:
I was merely using “she” as my gender-neutral singular pronoun and inadvertently offended Greenlight.

"She" is not a gender-neutral pronoun.
I never said that women are inferior to men, or that women are incapable of engaging in intelligent debate, because it's not true. If I believed that, I wouldn't be here. Women have just as vital a role in society as men - it's just a different role.
GreenLight has said the same thing:

you need to understand the different roles that men and women have in Christianity. They are different and they are specific, but neither is worse than the other.
When the roles that God established are viewed fully (as opposed to partially, as you have done here), there is no descrimination at all. You did not analyze the role that God gives men and demonstrates through Jesus Christ. Everything promotes equality when you use the entire equation instead of just part of it.
There is nothing inferior about women in comparison with men.

How many times do we need to say this before you believe that we mean it?

potwalloper. wrote:
"Different roles" is simply another way of saying different value.

No, it is not. I never said (and don't believe) that women have a different value.

Your views have no bearing on this debate because you are a mere woman. I am a man and am therefore superior. I am exercising my leadership role in discounting your opinion in this instance.

Please get back to your place and leave us men to debate this - perhaps you could make the dinner and mother some children...

You are not superior. Moreover, the Bible does not teach that every women should submit to every man. If you really want to know what it does teach, start another thread - I'm not going to explain it here.
The gist of it is, in situations where there is a single position of authority, it should generally be filled by a man. You have no position of authority over me, therefore I don't have any reason to obey you. And I won't be mothering any children until I have a husband.

Women have fought for hundreds of years to establish some sort of equality in society. If it wasn't for them you would not even have the option to vote for a president.

I am saddened that such misguided views on equality still persist in spite of the dedication of feminist activists over the centuries. You should be grateful for what they have given you and look long and hard at countries where women's rights are more overtly disregarded. If you had lived in Afghanistan under the Taleban your views may be different on this subject.

What I'm advocating is nothing like the Taliban. I am grateful for the opportunity to vote - but I don't believe that feminists were (or are) right in demanding it. My point is, the fact that good comes from an action doesn't mean that the action was right. The Crusaders brought Eastern learning, products, and languages back to Europe. Good came out of the Crusades - do you believe they were right?

Piper Plexed wrote:
I noticed your age is that of a woman and find it interesting that you consider yourself a girl. I must wonder why, with your separate but equal perspective, you are compelled to further diminish your value?

Who said girls are less valuable than women?
I never said men and women are "separate but equal." That's segregation. They are different but equal. In this situation, "different" and "separate" are not synonyms, so don't replace one with the other. That distorts my meaning. I referred to myself as a girl, because I'm still young, and a student, and living with my parents. I can't afford to live on my own yet, because all the money I have is going towards my school-bill, so that I can earn my Masters - which I wouldn't be doing if I thought women were inherently less intelligent than men.
As far as the "sexist" accusation (which was not directly addressed to me, but indirectly because I agree with GreenLight's position), if a sexist is someone who believes that men or superior to women, then I am not a sexist, unless you're going to tell me that I don't really believe what I say I believe. In that case there's no point in my continuing this discussion.

Hannah Joy

[potwalloper.]

deleted

[dangerdan]

The point of this thread was whether the God Christians believe in should be referred to as "He" or "She". Since Christian beliefs are determined by the Bible, and the Bible consistently refers to God as "He", that is the proper term to use when discussing Christian beliefs. How difficult can that be? If I were to ask someone to write my biography, and to refer to me as "she", it would be disrespectful to insist on calling me "he".

Yes yes, but do you think the authors of the bible referred to God as a “he” because it was the language convention, or because they thought God was masculine? If the former, then why is there a problem with someone using “she” as a gender-neutral pronoun. If the latter, then why do you think God is like a male?

Quote:

dangerdan wrote:

I was merely using “she” as my gender-neutral singular pronoun and inadvertently offended Greenlight.

"She" is not a gender-neutral pronoun.

Err, actually it has become quite popular for academics to use “she” as a gender-neutral pronoun. I’ve noticed quite a few modern philosophers use it. Here is a note that dictionary.com puts with the entry “she” –

Usage Note: Using she as a generic or gender-neutral singular pronoun is more common than might be expected, given the continuing debate regarding the parallel use of he. In a 1989 article from the Los Angeles Times, for instance, writer Dan Sullivan notes, “What's wrong with reinventing the wheel? Every artist has to do so in her search for the medium that will best express her angle of vision.” Alice Walker writes in 1991, “A person's work is her only signature.” It may be argued that this usage needlessly calls attention to the issue of gender, but the same argument can be leveled against generic he. This use of she still carries an air of unconventionality, which may be why only three percent of the Usage Panel recommends it in sentences like A taxpayer who fails to disclose the source of ___ income can be prosecuted under the new law.

I never said that women are inferior to men, or that women are incapable of engaging in intelligent debate, because it's not true. If I believed that, I wouldn't be here. Women have just as vital a role in society as men - it's just a different role.
GreenLight has said the same thing:
Quote:

you need to understand the different roles that men and women have in Christianity. They are different and they are specific, but neither is worse than the other.
When the roles that God established are viewed fully (as opposed to partially, as you have done here), there is no descrimination at all. You did not analyze the role that God gives men and demonstrates through Jesus Christ. Everything promotes equality when you use the entire equation instead of just part of it.
There is nothing inferior about women in comparison with men.

How many times do we need to say this before you believe that we mean it?

Well I can’t speak for others, but my concern is that in the one breath you say that men and women have the same value and no one is inferior, but in the next breath Greenlight goes on to say that he would hesitate to vote for a woman president presumably because of sex, and that women shouldn’t be in leadership rolls, etc, etc.

This is said here -

And as a side note regarding this little tid-bit... not only does the fact that no woman has ever been President of the United States not have anything to do with our discussion - but I wouldn't vote for a woman to be President anyway. I don't agree that a woman should hold such a position, in the same way that I won't become a member of any church that allows women to be pastors. It's not because I don't think a woman can do it, but it's because God has established seperate roles for men and women and I don't believe that is the role for a woman to have.

There is a slight chance that I would vote for a woman president, but God would have to make some pretty heavy indications to me that I should, so the circumstances are slim. But I suppose there's always a chance.

...and you say it here -

At least, I believe that in most cases men should have the leadership roles, and women should be the followers, helpers, and supporters, as equals with different roles.

Which is why I think it prudent to examine exactly what is meant by “different rolls”. Should social rolls be determined by gender and not by competence or experience or ability etc etc? That’s what I’m asking. Though it is a little off topic, and I can understand if a moderator would rather leave this question for another thread…but I think it’s still ties in.

[Piper Plexed]

Piper Plexed wrote:
I noticed your age is that of a woman and find it interesting that you consider yourself a girl. I must wonder why, with your separate but equal perspective, you are compelled to further diminish your value?

Who said girls are less valuable than women?
I never said men and women are "separate but equal." That's segregation. They are different but equal. In this situation, "different" and "separate" are not synonyms, so don't replace one with the other. That distorts my meaning. I referred to myself as a girl, because I'm still young, and a student, and living with my parents. I can't afford to live on my own yet, because all the money I have is going towards my school-bill, so that I can earn my Masters - which I wouldn't be doing if I thought women were inherently less intelligent than men.
As far as the "sexist" accusation (which was not directly addressed to me, but indirectly because I agree with GreenLight's position), if a sexist is someone who believes that men or superior to women, then I am not a sexist, unless you're going to tell me that I don't really believe what I say I believe. In that case there's no point in my continuing this discussion.

Hannah Joy

Well I must say that if one can not see that an adult (in this case a woman) may have greater value to society than a child (in this case a girl) then we really do have a difference of opinion. Usually with age comes experience wisdom and knowledge, I think that applies to both males and females. If you consider yourself a child because you are in college well that is unfortunate because as far as I know, children do not get their Masters (well sometimes they do though it is very rare). Further education is for adults, goal driven individuals whom see the value of intellectual growth, primary education is for children. With all due respect, I believe that it is you that does not fully understand the meaning of different. Though you may want to believe that separate is not a synonym to different, I find that Webster's thesaurus disagrees with you. Another synonym which also applies to our discussion is unequal which supports my position that Christianity endorses unequal or sexist treatment of women, as depicted through the common reference of God as a he.


different

Entry Word: different
Function: adjective
Text: 1 unlike in kind or character <could hardly be more different>
Synonyms disparate, dissimilar, distant, divergent, diverse, other, otherwise, unalike, unequal, unlike, unsimilar, various
Related Word particular, single; distinctive, individual, peculiar; divers, sundry
Contrasted Words akin, analogous, comparable, like, parallel, similar, uniform; equal, equivalent, self-same
Antonyms alike, identical, same
2
Synonyms DISTINCT 1, discrete, diverse, separate, several, various

As far as I can tell separate but equal parallels different but equal.

It makes no sense to me that Christians believe that God loves all of us equally though requires us to treat each other unequally. I believe that such sentiments contradict everything that Jesus stands for.

edited to ask..Hannah since you appear to be the feminine alterego to Greenlight, maybe from your feminine point of view you could possibly shed some light on why it insults God to refer to her as a her?

edited to correct typos...

[potwalloper.]

Greenjoy/Hannahlight wrote

Even in fiction that would be incorrect - Tolkien chose for Aragorn to be "he", and to refer to Aragorn as "she" is simply incorrect.

This is exactly the point I was making when I responded to your point on parables earlier in the thread. The use of gender-specific pronouns needs to remain consistent in order for any story to make sense.

I cannot see, however, how a mere convention in a fictional work can be extrapolated to a supernatural being that is gender neutral.

The specific roles of men and women are not really a part of this topic, though they are related. If you want to discuss them, start another thread.

You can deny that this is part of the topic all you like, however the treatment of women in predominately christian societies belies this.

Your whole argument is predicated on a false premise - that men are somehow superior to women and that people should be judged not by their merits or actions but by some mysterious predetermined role allocations. If that is not sexism then I don't know what is....

[chrispalasz]

Piper Plexed:

Entry Word: different
Function: adjective
Text: 1 unlike in kind or character <could hardly be more different>
Synonyms disparate, dissimilar, distant, divergent, diverse, other, otherwise, unalike, unequal, unlike, unsimilar, various
Related Word particular, single; distinctive, individual, peculiar; divers, sundry
Contrasted Words akin, analogous, comparable, like, parallel, similar, uniform; equal, equivalent, self-same
Antonyms alike, identical, same
2
Synonyms DISTINCT 1, discrete, diverse, separate, several, various

As far as I can tell separate but equal parallels different but equal.

It makes no sense to me that Christians believe that God loves all of us equally though requires us to treat each other unequally. I believe that such sentiments contradict everything that Jesus stands for.

eited to ask..Hannah since you appear to be the feminine alterego to Greenlight, maybe from your feminine point of view you could possibly shed some light on why it insults God to refer to her as a her?

Stop playing language games. The English language is very versatile and it works on many levels. This is such a trivial point, I'm sorry I'm being forced to give an English language lesson.

The definitions of these words are different. Adjectives mean certain things in certain contexts.

sep·a·rate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sp-rt)
v. sep·a·rat·ed, sep·a·rat·ing, sep·a·rates
v. tr.

To set or keep apart; disunite.
To space apart; scatter: small farms that were separated one from another by miles of open land.
To sort: separate mail by postal zones.
To differentiate or discriminate between; distinguish: a researcher who separated the various ethnic components of the population sample.
To remove from a mixture or combination; isolate.
To part (a couple), often by decree: She was separated from her husband last year.
To terminate a contractual relationship, as military service, with; discharge.

un·e·qual ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-kwl)
adj.
Not the same in any measurable aspect, such as extent or quantity.
Not the same as another in rank or social position.
Consisting of ill-matched opponents: an unequal race.
Having unbalanced sides or parts; asymmetrical.
Not even or consistent; variable.
Not having the required abilities; inadequate: “It was maddening to be unequal to many enterprises” (D.H. Lawrence).
Not fair. See Usage Note at equal.

dif·fer·ent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dfr-nt, dfrnt)
adj.
Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature; dissimilar: took different approaches to the problem.
Distinct or separate: That's a different issue altogether.
Various or assorted: interviewed different members of the community.
Differing from all others; unusual: a different point of view.

Tell me, do these sentences all mean the same thing?

Green and blue are separate colors.
Green and blue are different colors.
Green and blue are unequal colors.

Unequal doesn't mean one is better than the other. It means that one does not equate to the other. One is not equal to the other.

Piper Plexed: You are not equal to Hannah Joy because you are not the exact same person. Can I say that you two are unequal? Yes. Does that mean she's better than you, or the other way around? No.

Nothing has been shown, here, other than it's easy for a person to mistake the meaning of a word in any context simply because they refuse to see what's there.

Piper Plexed, dangerdan, potwalloper: Nobody expects you to like Christianity, and nobody expects you to listen to what the Bible says - but you don't define Christianity. Nobody can ever define what they don't understand themselves. Nobody can ever understand what they aren't willing to learn about.

You can call it sexist all you want, but that doesn't speak for Christianity, not in the least. It only speaks for the hatred against it.

It's easy to point fingers and play the blame game, but I don't see what you seek to gain from this discussion. You're not asking Christians any questions, you're telling us what we think.

[chrispalasz]

potwalloper:

Greenjoy/Hannahlight wrote

Cute. Because two Christians share the same opinion that differ from yours, you can mix up the names.

By your own logic, does that make you: "Plexeddanwolloper"?

We may be one in the Body of Christ, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that you use our names correctly and appropriately in the future. Thanks.

I'm sorry we don't agree on this issue. I tried to tell you that I'm not the only person that holds the Christian View, and I can assure you that I had nothing to do with Hannah Joy posting here (even though I enjoy and appreciate another Christian's presence 8) )

[mrmufin]

Piper Plexed, dangerdan, potwalloper: Nobody expects you to like Christianity, and nobody expects you to listen to what the Bible says - but you don't define Christianity. Nobody can ever define what they don't understand themselves. Nobody can ever understand what they aren't willing to learn about.

You can call it sexist all you want, but that doesn't speak for Christianity, not in the least. It only speaks for the hatred against it.

Just a slight nitpick, GreenLight: at least check, Piper Plexed identified herself as a Christian. While she might not be quite as gung ho to pack all us heathens off to the eternal fiery torment of hell as some Christians seem to be, I would hardly call her a hater of Christianity.

Regards,
mrmufin