God as the Divine Blackmailer

[potwalloper.]

It has been said that the threat of eternal damnation is no different to blackmail - ie coercing people to do things by the use of a threat.

...and as blackmail is a sin then if he is guilty God would be a sinner.

What do you think?

Is god guilty of blackmail and therefore a sinner?

- if yes why do you believe this to be so

- if no then why not?

[potwalloper.]

Greenlight311 wrote

If you want, potwalloper, you can consider God a blackmailer... but only if every government in the world is also considered a blackmailer for enforcing laws against criminals.

You're being blackmailed right now! If you don't follow the laws... you're going to go to jail - or suffer some other punishment.

If you want to think that's blackmail, fine. But it's not. It's called justice.

I have already responded to this point earlier in the thread.

[RevJP]

Your opening premise is faulty, therefore the question is faulty.

You asked:

It has been said that the threat of eternal damnation is no different to blackmail - ie coercing people to do things by the use of a threat.

...Is god guilty of blackmail and therefore a sinner?

and bernee51 said: God made us sinners in the first place, he 'has a divine plan' on which we are al included so we have no choice (god has chosen for us),

Here's the problem: Pot has begun his question with the idea of us being threatened with eternal damnation, there is no 'threat' involved. Eternal damnation is our birthright, God offered us a pardon, freely. Subsequently one cannot ask if God is blackmailing us, but one could ask why the condemned do not accept a freely offered pardon?

As for what bernee said; God did not make us sinners, that was Adam and Eve's doing, and yes he does have a divine plan.

God is perfect love, perfect justice, and perfect wisdom. Perfect love created Adam and Eve, a race of mankind that was designed to commune with God. The first man destroyed that communion by disobeying God (sin), and so perfect justice had to step in. The wages earned by that sin was death, as decreed by Him before Adam made the choice to sin.

So here we have perfect justice demanding the death of all who are in sin, we have perfect love desiring for us to be in communion with God for eternity, so perfect wisdom steps in to reconcile the two. He provided us a suitable sacrifice to take on our sin and proclaim us righteous in His eyes, allowing us to return to the communion with Him, now and forever. What is the catch? Just like any pardon, we have to accept it. In this case through faith in Christ.

[potwalloper.]

RevJP wrote

Here's the problem: Pot has begun his question with the idea of us being threatened with eternal damnation, there is no 'threat' involved. Eternal damnation is our birthright, God offered us a pardon, freely. Subsequently one cannot ask if God is blackmailing us, but one could ask why the condemned do not accept a freely offered pardon?

I see - so perfect God with his perfect love has created a situation where people have no option but to be sinners and when they sin they will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity unless they worship him...

Interesting - your definition of imperfection would be?

As for what bernee said; God did not make us sinners, that was Adam and Eve's doing, and yes he does have a divine plan.

So - some geezer in a fig leaf chews on an apple and we all burn in hell...sounds pretty logical to me. Now then where is my Mickey Mouse book again?

God is perfect love, perfect justice, and perfect wisdom. Perfect love created Adam and Eve, a race of mankind that was designed to commune with God. The first man destroyed that communion by disobeying God (sin), and so perfect justice had to step in. The wages earned by that sin was death, as decreed by Him before Adam made the choice to sin.

If god is perfect how could adam and eve have sinned unless it was his intention that this would occur? If god is omniscient he would have known about the sin before it occured, indeed before he even created them. As such god is culpable (this has already been discussed earlier in the thread). Unless you are saying of course that he is not omniscient...

So here we have perfect justice demanding the death of all who are in sin

So, "perfect justice" equates to death eh? Oops I masturbated so now I will die and burn in hell for all eternity - indeed I didn't even need to do that because of original sin...some justice, some perfection

And god gave me the propensity for masturbation in the first place and knew I would do it because he is omniscient...

we have perfect love desiring for us to be in communion with God for eternity,

For "desiring" read "requiring" - if you don't you burn - seems like a requirement to me.

so perfect wisdom steps in to reconcile the two.

I see. This would be the perfect wisdom that created a world where thousands of children die of starvation, people have genetic disorders that are innate, there is Aids, plague, cancer, murder and misery. I wish I was that wise - I might be able to add one and one to make three.

He provided us a suitable sacrifice to take on our sin and proclaim us righteous in His eyes, allowing us to return to the communion with Him, now and forever. What is the catch? Just like any pardon, we have to accept it. In this case through faith in Christ.

In other words worship me or you burn - sounds like blackmail I'm afraid

[chrispalasz]

potwalloper* wrote: I have already responded to this point earlier in the thread.

Will you link me the post or will you give me a general page of reference please? Thanks. I'm interested to hear that one.

potwalloper* wrote: I see - so perfect God with his perfect love has created a situation where people have no option but to be sinners and when they sin they will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity unless they worship him...

Interesting - your definition of imperfection would be?

Not God

potwalloper* wrote: So - some geezer in a fig leaf chews on an apple and we all burn in hell...sounds pretty logical to me. Now then where is my Mickey Mouse book again?

This bitterly sarcastic remark does not make any point, and it does not refute the argument presented. In short, it accomplishes nothing.

potwalloper* wrote:If god is perfect how could adam and eve have sinned unless it was his intention that this would occur?

Now THIS is a question that might be worth your time for starting a new thread over. You should d othat

So, "perfect justice" equates to death eh? Oops I masturbated so now I will die and burn in hell for all eternity - indeed I didn't even need to do that because of original sin...some justice, some perfection

This hypothetical situation doesn't really serve it's purpose because it's impossible. We are all sinners before it is even possible for us to masturbate - so it simply is not possible for masturbation to be ones only sin.

potwalloper* wrote: For "desiring" read "requiring" - if you don't you burn - seems like a requirement to me.

The only thing God "requires" is that we pay our debts. Society requires the same thing. Society desires that we not break the law. God desires the same thing. Where are you going with this? Of course God requires that justice be done... Only God is merciful. Rather than sending us to Hell for Eternity, He says all we need to do is accept that Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty on our behalf.

What an EVIL God! He sacrifices Himself, is tortured, and is crucified on our behalf so that we can have eternal life in paradise! Let's criticize Him for it.



8) :2gun: <=== These guys are cool.

I see. This would be the perfect wisdom that created a world where thousands of children die of starvation, people have genetic disorders that are innate, there is Aids, plague, cancer, murder and misery. I wish I was that wise - I might be able to add one and one to make three.

Apart from your desire to do so, I don't see how you can keep mistaking the affects of sin, for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

potwalloper* wrote: In other words worship me or you burn - sounds like blackmail I'm afraid

And we're brought back to square one: faulty argument. 8)

*sorry dangerdan. correction fixed.

[dangerdan]

GreenLight311

This is definately not what the thread question is. God says no such thing in or through the Bible.

Hmmm, so you don't agree with the &#8220;faith is more important than deeds&#8221; theology?

GreenLight311

I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. There aren't good deeds that you can do to "pay back" your debt.

That&#8217;s precisely my point. So you dooo agree with a &#8220;faith is more important than deeds&#8221; theology?

GreenLight311

I believe your position is only held by the dislike of the Christian God. It actually has nothing to do with God's laws at all.

If my interpretation of Christian theology is mistaken, and you think people aren&#8217;t accepted into heaven via faith, then please correct me.

Oh, and with your last post, I think you accidentally put that I was making the quotes. I know it was probably just a typo, but if you wanted to edit/correct it, then it might make it easier for others to follow the debate.

[scorpia]

I see - he doesn't punish them for sinning.

So what is this "burn in the fires of hell for all eternity" thing that christians go on about so much?

Yeah, well originally that was what hell was all about. You sin, you die. We all have the choice whether to in or not, but if you choose sin, you have to get punished for it, otherwise how would it be justice? People have the option to commit a crime, but then they are threatened with fines or jail. So is the law blackmailing him? No. What then, the best way to prevent crime is to control everyone 24/t.... so maybe cops should hover over everyone 24/7. (sarcastically) a real utopia!!

And total predestibation isn’t free will at all.

But as God doesn’t want everyone to be punished, the price has taken the punishment, and he can forgive everyone......

'Oh yeah.' you'd probably say. 'only those who love him. real prejudiced.'
Well no-one is going to be let off anything if you don’t say you’re sorry and are sincere. How can anyone be let off of anything unless you decide to start caring for those around you and respect the judge and his law?

If God did not know this then he is not omniscient...I thought that omniscience was one of the fundamental elements of the christian god?

I’m saying he did know either way. But but something to think on; at least for me............if it didn’t matter how we decided, why bother saying anything, considering that he is of course omniscient. Anyway I will leave that statment as it is and not add anything more to it.

Quote:
You may think some things are bad….. alcohol or smoking…… they may even be harmful to health. But when it comes to someone you care about, you’re not going to remove that option from them, even if it is harmful. You don’t spend your entire life trying to hide the existence of alcohol from them…. They will find out eventually. You may as well present it to them and say ‘although these may harm you, I’ll let you have the option and choose for yourself.’ It’s their body, their choice.

Surely you aren't saying we'll all burn in the fires of hell for having a pint and a ciggy? Or are you?

No. All you do is suffer the horrors of lung cancer and brain damage and clogged arteries. But even if I did think it was bad;

...your lungs, your cancer, your choice.

Precisely! God let people sin, even though it would cause much bad. Their choice. I could go and find some friend and see them smoking and rant about how it may give them lung cancer …….. but going and physically removing the cigarette from their hands each time preventing them smoking at all would be rude. Always hiding the cigarettes would be rude. Surely this would be a case where although you know the consequences, and you have the power to stop it, you don’t.

I love you - please die of bubonic plague, starvation, Aids, cancer, cardiac arrest, stroke etc etc. Please have a genetic disorder that leaves you in agony for your entire life. Please suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Some love - I think I'd rather be hated!

I respet you, Oh please die of lung cancer, clogged arteries, addictions, loss of money from spending so much on cigarettes. Some respect. Yet you can’t deny a person their choice.

Due to predispositions for same. Predispositions that were created by god...

That were allowed by God. Humans chose this disposition. God allowed it. Smokers have a predisposition to keep on smoking, you allow it.

Mothers ain't supernatural - god is. Use an analogy that takes into account the omni nature of the christian god.

You can't compare a natural reproductive cycle with a supernatural creation where god makes the rules. Yes people do know that offspring will die. That is because everything dies. Because god (in the christian worldview) chose to design us to degrade and die rather than continue forever physically.

You keep on missing the point, simply dismissing it because God is omni. The point is Mothers still take the step as does God valuing the life that far outweighs the death. And as for designing everyone to degrade and die, that isn’t true of everyone. Some won’t. And seeing how manking will rise again, it far outweighs the death involved still.

And yes God is al powerful. But he didn’t use his power even though he had the knowledge of the future because it would have been wrong, and would have been overly intervening, etc, etc.

So sin is a fait accompli - thank you for agreeing with me...

I do not agree with you. And people can stop sinning though

If I had created my son and had full control over the nature of that creation (including predisposition to murder) then the comparison would be valid. In that circumstance I would have simply adjusted the variables when creating him such that murder would not occur and the situation would not arise in the first place. Ah the wonders of omniscience...

Again that’s taking away free will. Again, you have the power and knowledge but you use it when it is wrong to.

Knowledge is not control. Not acting is not control. Control is the ability to alter variables such that a desired outcome will result. God has control in the true sense, humans do not.

But he wouldn’t alter it for his desired outcome. He leaves it alone so that humans can have thier own desired outcome.


quote]I didn't say it was mankind's only nature. However the most fundamental elements of human behaviour - reproduction and survival are classified by christians as sinful...we may be able to do "good" however we have no option (as described by christians) but to also do "bad". In which case we have a predisposition to sin. God created us. God must also have created the predispositions to sin. Ergo god is responsible for sin. [/quote]
But I do not believe we have no option other to do bad as well. And as long as I believe that, I will remain truely free.

And besides, God, people have a predisposition to good, which when strong enough can overcome that predisposition to sin.

You put the noodles in. You switched on the heat. Are you going to punish those noodles when they heat up unless they worship you?

We are the noodles. Heat is sin. God switched on the flames and will send us to hell for being hot...unless of course we agree to worship and adore him! Sounds like blackmail to me...

I leave the noodles alone, they boil themselves. Life is the hot water, the noodles are us. The heat isn’t sin, the refusal to accept the heat is. Those noodles that don’t get cooked at the end get thrown out. He switched on the flames to offer us a way out, but some just wont accept it.

I thought that God was supposed to exist outside of time. Are you trying to say that god is bound by the restrictions of linear time and requires an experiential basis for his knowledge?

If this is the case then he is not omniscient. Period.

Or is there some other form of omniscience that I do not understand properly ... perhaps it is partiscience or experiscience?

Sorry but either god is all knowing or he ain't...

Well I could argue that that knowledge had to come from somewhere and that Jesus was the start of that and that knowledge was sent back to before, but I’d doubt you’d accept that.

But although he is all-knowing, interestingly enough Jesus is still a bit more limited that God; He doesn’t know when he is coming back, for one.

But still..... if God is all knowing, how could he know what’s it’s like to be unknowing? If that is so, how could he be all knowing?

Maybe this temptation was something that would have had to happened while limited, as Jesus, a human. Maybe learning what it was like to be unknowing was what he was doing, and temptaion to sin was part of that. So maybe then God over came that knowledge of unknowledge.

If he is all knowing and created us as we are anyway then we are back to the Divine Blackmailer scenario

I said before.......... how can he be a blackmailer if what he wants couldn’t be gotten by blackmailing? If he blackmails a person into loving him, it wouldn’t be real love and he would probably still reject him.

Similiarly creating man and temptations together and giving man a chance of not succumbing to temptations is just a joke.

But there IS a chance of not succumbing to temptations!!!

But the father doesnt have any power to stop his son from dying.If the father has the power to prevent his son from dying he will do it.many fathers and mothers have sacrificed their lives to save their children's.So if god is atleast half as good as my father is,what prevents him from stoping me from death?My father wouldnt care whether i am a sinner or not.If he has the power to save me,he will save me.So why doesnt god,who has the power to prevent my death,doesnt do so?

If a child runs away from home first blame will fall on the parents."The bought up of the parents is bad" will be the first comment.If parents say he ran away because of his school friends then still they will ask parents "why didnt you monitor his friends??" so ultimately the blame will fall on parents alone.In our case on god alone.So doesnt god know to manage his children properly?

See? That’s the problem today. People simply blame the parents. But these days the parents do all they could but the kids still run off because they want to rebel. Like the show I mentioned showing a whole heap of parents with problems like this. Trust me, it aint always the parents fault.

can you say of some act which is done by every single person in the world,but is still illegal?when nobody can resist themselves from doing an act,it isnt a sin.

Speeding :p

And if the doctor is real good one,he will cure the patient from addiction.Addiction victims are helpless.They cannot help themselves.They are totally gone cases.

You say they are totally gone cases, then you say a doctor with a good eye can cure him? Nice contradiction.

If a mother finds out that her son is going to rape a woman and she has the power to stop it, will she be worried about her son's free will?comeon.If god gives man free will to rape or not to rape it means that god gives licence to rape.

She will call the cops, she will yell at him, she will restrain him. The best she may do is keep him constantly tied up to prevent things.........
............ then again, who knows............. maybe the man tied up would still have in his mind ‘’grrr, want to rape, etc’, and would learn nothing. Maybe this way he would at least learn from his mistakes... Maybe sin is a necessary evil though. We get free will, but also we end up making mistakes, which we learn from. We suffer strife but we fight through it in the end and it can make or break you or leave you the stronger. Imagine if all rapes, all killing, all wars never happened. It may seem like utopia, but we would be dumber than ever, and maybe even with a bigger desire to do bad even though you can’t.
So the woman may always prevent this, she may try again and again to prevent this, all the time, but the son keeps on at it. Maybe she gets sick of it and lets him learn the hard why why him doing it is so wrong

Imagine the situation.A christian male rapes a non-christian girl.That girl is a normal good pious girl but belongs to different religion.This male is a cruel man.He rapes her and sadistically kills her very cruelly after torturing her for hours.Now before dying this girl shoots down the rapist.He also dies.If both of them stand in judgement day before god, god should naturally send that girl to heaven and that man to hell.But since that male was christian, god has to send him to heaven and that girl to hell since she was unbeliever.How ludicrous this will look.will you even call such a god as a just god?

Now if a believer did that how can he say he’s for God’s goodness? In that case the christianity he would claim would just be a name, considering he ‘did not love his brother’ which is required also. If he rapes, he hates the woman, he would die too.
Unless you are syaing the guy felt upset some time he was allowed to live, and truely regretted it, then like after became a proper christian, then he could be forgiven. Unless for you, people shouldn’t be forgiven for any crime, and I sure hope you do not think that.

But in this "experiment" people get massacred,get raped,get tortured....and still god wants to keep on run this experiments always???

Maybe were the ones learning from this experiment. Maybe bad things would happen, but you learn from it.

[potwalloper.]

GreenLight311 wrote

potwalloper* wrote: I have already responded to this point earlier in the thread.

Will you link me the post or will you give me a general page of reference please? Thanks. I'm interested to hear that one.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10

potwalloper* wrote: I see - so perfect God with his perfect love has created a situation where people have no option but to be sinners and when they sin they will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity unless they worship him...

Interesting - your definition of imperfection would be?

Not God

potwalloper* wrote: So - some geezer in a fig leaf chews on an apple and we all burn in hell...sounds pretty logical to me. Now then where is my Mickey Mouse book again?

This bitterly sarcastic remark does not make any point, and it does not refute the argument presented. In short, it accomplishes nothing.

Well it did serve to point out the ludicrous nature of original sin...how can the entire future of mankind be determined by the action of a single person? Is this justice? It would be like saying "I'm sending you to the electric chair because your great grandfather committed murder" - I'm sure you'd appeal that one if you ended up in court today...

So, "perfect justice" equates to death eh? Oops I masturbated so now I will die and burn in hell for all eternity - indeed I didn't even need to do that because of original sin...some justice, some perfection

This hypothetical situation doesn't really serve it's purpose because it's impossible. We are all sinners before it is even possible for us to masturbate - so it simply is not possible for masturbation to be ones only sin.

Exactly my point - sin is a fait accompli created by god for which he will punish us unless we worship him...blackmail I think

potwalloper* wrote: For "desiring" read "requiring" - if you don't you burn - seems like a requirement to me.

The only thing God "requires" is that we pay our debts. Society requires the same thing. Society desires that we not break the law. God desires the same thing. Where are you going with this? Of course God requires that justice be done... Only God is merciful. Rather than sending us to Hell for Eternity, He says all we need to do is accept that Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty on our behalf.

How can someone be merciful if they created a situation where you are damned before you were even born and then will punish you if you do not worship them? If a man set fire to your house and locked the doors then said he would only give you the keys if you worship him I don't think you would call him merciful. You would call him a blackmailer (amongst other things).

As I have said before in this thread free will has no bearing here as god's omniscience means he will have known the outcomes of everyone's decisions before he even created the universe and yet he created it and created hell as well in the full knowledge of who would end up there.

If you say he didn't know then he is not omniscient. Period.

What an EVIL God! He sacrifices Himself, is tortured, and is crucified on our behalf so that we can have eternal life in paradise! Let's criticize Him for it.

A supernatural being would not even need to feel pain - being omnipotent he could have simply switched off the pain receptors. He did not die because he is immortal - how can an immortal being die?

He could simply have not created hell and saved everyone the bother - no burning, no need for any nails, just paradise for everyone. He could also have varied the characteristics of humans such that sin never occured - being omniscient this would not have been too difficult...

8) :2gun: <=== These guys are cool.

I agree

I see. This would be the perfect wisdom that created a world where thousands of children die of starvation, people have genetic disorders that are innate, there is Aids, plague, cancer, murder and misery. I wish I was that wise - I might be able to add one and one to make three.

Apart from your desire to do so, I don't see how you can keep mistaking the affects of sin, for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Because at the point at which he created the universe god will have known that these things would occur due to his omniscience - as such he is culpable (see my resonses to Scorpia's points earlier in the thread)

potwalloper* wrote: In other words worship me or you burn - sounds like blackmail I'm afraid

And we're brought back to square one: faulty argument.

And we're back to square one - accurate argument.

I created you with a predisposition to sin so you are all sinners no matter what you do

I will send you to hell for sinning

...unless you agree to worship me

ergo I am a blackmailer...

[scorpia]

And we're back to square one - accurate argument.

I created you with a predisposition to sin so you are all sinners no matter what you do

I will send you to hell for sinning

...unless you agree to worship me

ergo I am a blackmailer...

Correction;
even of God threatens to send us to heall for sinning, unless you agree to LOVE him, if that's a threat, the love would not be real. God would not have people truely loving him, and not be getting what he wants, and there would no point in the blackmailing

Forced love is no love at all

[potwalloper.]

scorpia wrote

I see - he doesn't punish them for sinning.

So what is this "burn in the fires of hell for all eternity" thing that christians go on about so much?

Yeah, well originally that was what hell was all about. You sin, you die. We all have the choice whether to in or not, but if you choose sin, you have to get punished for it, otherwise how would it be justice? People have the option to commit a crime, but then they are threatened with fines or jail. So is the law blackmailing him? No. What then, the best way to prevent crime is to control everyone 24/t.... so maybe cops should hover over everyone 24/7. (sarcastically) a real utopia!!

This ignores omniscience and god's ability to vary human characteristics at the point at which he created the universe, and also equates human justce systems to god's which is flawed logic. I have already addressed this earlier in the thread...

And total predestibation isn’t free will at all.

But as God doesn’t want everyone to be punished, the price has taken the punishment, and he can forgive everyone......

'Oh yeah.' you'd probably say. 'only those who love him. real prejudiced.'
Well no-one is going to be let off anything if you don’t say you’re sorry and are sincere. How can anyone be let off of anything unless you decide to start caring for those around you and respect the judge and his law?

Not quite - what I am going to say is how can god not want people to be punished if his omniscience means he knew that they would at the point at which he created the universe? If he truly did not want them to be puniished he would have created a universe where this was not an outcome...it's not rocket science

Surely you aren't saying we'll all burn in the fires of hell for having a pint and a ciggy? Or are you?

No. All you do is suffer the horrors of lung cancer and brain damage and clogged arteries. But even if I did think it was bad;

...your lungs, your cancer, your choice.

Precisely! God let people sin, even though it would cause much bad. Their choice.

God created people with a predisposition for sin in the full knowledge that they would sin ergo his choice not theirs.

I could go and find some friend and see them smoking and rant about how it may give them lung cancer …….. but going and physically removing the cigarette from their hands each time preventing them smoking at all would be rude. Always hiding the cigarettes would be rude. Surely this would be a case where although you know the consequences, and you have the power to stop it, you don’t.

Yes you could. You could also force everyone to smoke whether they want to or not and then punish them for it. That would be a more accurate analogy with sin as a fait accompli.

Or you could, of course, create a genetic predisposition to substance abuse (as has been shown to exist in some humans) so that they are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol...seems a little cruel really.

I'm afraid that none of your comparisons take into account sin as a fait accompi combined with god's omniscient nature. They are all simple comments on elements of life over which we, generally, have control and as such are fundamentally flawed when comparing them with sin per se.

I love you - please die of bubonic plague, starvation, Aids, cancer, cardiac arrest, stroke etc etc. Please have a genetic disorder that leaves you in agony for your entire life. Please suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Some love - I think I'd rather be hated!

I respet you, Oh please die of lung cancer, clogged arteries, addictions, loss of money from spending so much on cigarettes. Some respect. Yet you can’t deny a person their choice.

The list I gave were of things that any loving god would never allow to occur in my understanding of the word love. How can a loving god have created a world where a baby's body is eaten away by parasites before her mother's eyes? Or people suffer such extreme misery, death and suffering?

You will probably say that this is due to original sin or is part of god's grand plan...or may not be able to reconcile it yourself with your understanding of god and simply opt for the "head in the sand" approach. I for one cannot reconcile such extreme misery and suffering with the concept of a benevolent god.

Due to predispositions for same. Predispositions that were created by god...

That were allowed by God. Humans chose this disposition. God allowed it. Smokers have a predisposition to keep on smoking, you allow it.

Sorry not allowed but created - it is an important difference. He created us therefore he created the predispositions. Simple really. You cannot choose a predisposition - pre means pre

Mothers ain't supernatural - god is. Use an analogy that takes into account the omni nature of the christian god.

You can't compare a natural reproductive cycle with a supernatural creation where god makes the rules. Yes people do know that offspring will die. That is because everything dies. Because god (in the christian worldview) chose to design us to degrade and die rather than continue forever physically.

You keep on missing the point, simply dismissing it because God is omni.

That's because god's omniscience/omnipotence invalidates any comparison with mothers and makes any such comparison a logical fallacy.

The point is Mothers still take the step as does God valuing the life that far outweighs the death. And as for designing everyone to degrade and die, that isn’t true of everyone. Some won’t. And seeing how manking will rise again, it far outweighs the death involved still.

I see - can you please let me have the names of the people who are thousands of years old. Thanks.

There is, of course, no evidence that mankind will rise again but that is probably for another thread.

And yes God is al powerful. But he didn’t use his power even though he had the knowledge of the future because it would have been wrong, and would have been overly intervening, etc, etc.

But if god is omniscient he would not need to intervene - he could have created a universe where nobody needs to sin. And how could god be "wrong"? How can a perfect being be wrong? Surely whatever perfect god does must be deemed right by the very act of him doing it...

So sin is a fait accompli - thank you for agreeing with me...

I do not agree with you. And people can stop sinning though

But earlier in the thread you did confirm that sin is a fait accompli by confirming that we are all sinners no matter what we do. Sorry but it is confusing when you keep shifting positions on this issue. Either we are all sinners or we are not.

If I had created my son and had full control over the nature of that creation (including predisposition to murder) then the comparison would be valid. In that circumstance I would have simply adjusted the variables when creating him such that murder would not occur and the situation would not arise in the first place. Ah the wonders of omniscience...

Again that’s taking away free will. Again, you have the power and knowledge but you use it when it is wrong to.

No it is not. Free will can exist within a multiplicity of parameters. As I have said omniscience makes god culpable and there can be no free will if our seats in hell were already chosen for us when god created the universe.

Knowledge is not control. Not acting is not control. Control is the ability to alter variables such that a desired outcome will result. God has control in the true sense, humans do not.

But he wouldn’t alter it for his desired outcome. He leaves it alone so that humans can have thier own desired outcome.

...which he already knows about. Seems rather a pointless exercise really. And the outcome is his desired outcome because he knew the outcome before he created the universe and yet went on to create it anyway.

I didn't say it was mankind's only nature. However the most fundamental elements of human behaviour - reproduction and survival are classified by christians as sinful...we may be able to do "good" however we have no option (as described by christians) but to also do "bad". In which case we have a predisposition to sin. God created us. God must also have created the predispositions to sin. Ergo god is responsible for sin.

But I do not believe we have no option other to do bad as well. And as long as I believe that, I will remain truely free.

And besides, God, people have a predisposition to good, which when strong enough can overcome that predisposition to sin.

But you do believe that we are all sinners and that we will all go to hell unless we worship god no matter what else we do in this life. As I said above this means that by the very act of creation god is culpable.

You put the noodles in. You switched on the heat. Are you going to punish those noodles when they heat up unless they worship you?

We are the noodles. Heat is sin. God switched on the flames and will send us to hell for being hot...unless of course we agree to worship and adore him! Sounds like blackmail to me...

I leave the noodles alone, they boil themselves. Life is the hot water, the noodles are us. The heat isn’t sin, the refusal to accept the heat is. Those noodles that don’t get cooked at the end get thrown out. He switched on the flames to offer us a way out, but some just wont accept it.

I see - so noodles in a pot of hot water can choose whether or not to heat up? Perhaps we need to add another law of thermodynamics...

I thought that God was supposed to exist outside of time. Are you trying to say that god is bound by the restrictions of linear time and requires an experiential basis for his knowledge?

If this is the case then he is not omniscient. Period.

Or is there some other form of omniscience that I do not understand properly ... perhaps it is partiscience or experiscience?

Sorry but either god is all knowing or he ain't...

Well I could argue that that knowledge had to come from somewhere and that Jesus was the start of that and that knowledge was sent back to before, but I’d doubt you’d accept that.

You are correct - I don't. Knowledge would not need to be "sent back" to a being that knows not the constraints of linear time.

But although he is all-knowing, interestingly enough Jesus is still a bit more limited that God; He doesn’t know when he is coming back, for one.

But still..... if God is all knowing, how could he know what’s it’s like to be unknowing? If that is so, how could he be all knowing?

A good point...

If he is all knowing and created us as we are anyway then we are back to the Divine Blackmailer scenario

I said before.......... how can he be a blackmailer if what he wants couldn’t be gotten by blackmailing? If he blackmails a person into loving him, it wouldn’t be real love and he would probably still reject him.

Because blackmail as a concept does not require a successful outcome - it is the act not the outcome that makes you a blackmailer. Ergo god is a blackmailer...

[scorpia]

This ignores omniscience and god's ability to vary human characteristics at the point at which he created the universe, and also equates human justce systems to god's which is flawed logic.

To what end? He varied human characteristics to be tempted either way...... both for good and evil. If it were for only one people wouldn't have much of a choice. He varied it at the beginning to be able to choose either way. If he used his omniscience to do otherwise it would be wrong. I keep on saying this

...which he already knows about. Seems rather a pointless exercise really. And the outcome is his desired outcome because he knew the outcome before he created the universe and yet went on to create it anyway

what I am going to say is how can god not want people to be punished if his omniscience means he knew that they would at the point at which he created the universe? If he truly did not want them to be puniished he would have created a universe where this was not an outcome...it's not rocket science

He didn't want them to get punished, that's why he sent Jesus, and at the point he made this universe, he already knew how get everyone out, so there he created a universe where it's not an outcome.

God created people with a predisposition for sin in the full knowledge that they would sin ergo his choice not theirs.

He also created people with a predispotion for good knowing they would do good, and choose that, so they can choose either way. And he also had knowledge that some people would turn away from sin and learn from their mistakes and then have another life without sin.

Yes you could.

But then people would view that as wrong. It's their right

You could also force everyone to smoke whether they want to or not and then punish them for it.

Would the cancer smoking produces be a punishment for smoking, or simply the consequences of your actions. Sin is the consequences.

Or you could, of course, create a genetic predisposition to substance abuse (as has been shown to exist in some humans) so that they are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol...seems a little cruel really.

Or maybe it's just a genetic predisposition for curiosity in the first place

The list I gave were of things that any loving god would never allow to occur in my understanding of the word love. How can a loving god have created a world where a baby's body is eaten away by parasites before her mother's eyes? Or people suffer such extreme misery, death and suffering?

Before, he didn't allow it. Before, he let humans live so long, he punished people outright for evil doings to set an example for others and discourage the whole thing. Even when Jesus was around, he didn't want to let a blind man suffer, he cured the blindness. Before......

But now? Why does suffering happen so much now, even if it happened before hand but God didn't allow....
All i can say is God will not allow it for much longer. there will be a point were it will end.

But then would you argue; why allow a man to be blind in the first place?
What about Job? He suffered like hell. Why did he suffer? His suffering was a test. So what will you say, that the poor baby you mentioned was a test too? Was it a consequensce of sin, so that one may learn not to sin? The woman may be innocent, and what possibly could she be tested for? Only God knows, I'm afraid. But maybe throughout life, even with suffering and mistakes and wrongdoings, there maybe something going on elsewhere between God and the devil like it was with Job.

Sorry not allowed but created - it is an important difference. He created us therefore he created the predispositions. Simple really. You cannot choose a predisposition

Yes you can. There is the temptation to sin but also the temptation to do good

I see - can you please let me have the names of the people who are thousands of years old. Thanks.

Enoch for one. :p

But if god is omniscient he would not need to intervene - he could have created a universe where nobody needs to sin. And how could god be "wrong"? How can a perfect being be wrong? Surely whatever perfect god does must be deemed right by the very act of him doing it...

So how is it right then? Maybe, for the time being at least, sin is a necessary evil.

But earlier in the thread you did confirm that sin is a fait accompli by confirming that we are all sinners no matter what we do. Sorry but it is confusing when you keep shifting positions on this issue. Either we are all sinners or we are not.

We are not 'judged as sinners no matter what we do'. It's what we do do that is sin. You don't seem to be getting this. I could not say that you are going to accomplish another use the word fait accompli and other fancy latin terms, but you will do this again because you want to, although you are not forced to do so. I could not say that people are always going to be people who walk on solid ground and walking on ground (or swimming) is all they would accomplish, because although that's what everyone does, being limited to gravity, but it does not mean there can't be someone who may defy gravity and find a way to fly.

It's not at all probable for someone to fly, but it's not impossible. It's possible, but no-one can fly because no-one seems to have gotten around to figuring out a way to fly. No-one flies, and everyone is a sinner. But it is possible to fly, and possible not to be a sinner, but no-one seems to want to bother figuring out how to fly and no-one wants to find a way to find a way out of sin. How can you not get this?

Free will can exist within a multiplicity of parameters

If we're all going to be good and never have the allowance to do wrong, it would not be free will. If there is going to be free will, you have to be allowed to accomplish both good and bad. If you are not allowed to accomplish bad then you don't have the free will to do bad, ergo you don't have free will. Simple.

But you do believe that we are all sinners and that we will all go to hell unless we worship god no matter what else we do in this life. As I said above this means that by the very act of creation god is culpable.

.........Culpable for bringing some people into heaven

I see - so noodles in a pot of hot water can choose whether or not to heat up? Perhaps we need to add another law of thermodynamics...

Well the noodle maker chose to put in too much flour or whatever makes those little hard noodles that don't seem to cook. In any case he still has some of those noodles rejected. You get the jist

Because blackmail as a concept does not require a successful outcome - it is the act not the outcome that makes you a blackmailer. Ergo god is a blackmailer...

The 'blackmailer' would be expecting to succeed and demanding something though;

'I want $10000 given to me freely without you being afraid of blackmail or I will shoot you but you will be so I don't want the $10000 because you will only give it to me in fear so I don't want it."
And he's still blackmailing you? Riiiiiiiiiight