Does belief equal worship?

[potwalloper.]

It has been said that the God of the bible is a cruel and vindictive spirit by his actions on earth and by the creation of hell.

If you were given incontravertible evidence of the existence of god would you then begin to worship him?

Does belief in god automatically lead to worship in the christian sense?

Or would you say "yes he does exist but I don't like him very much as described and won't worship him"

To start things off - if God's existence were proven I would not feel any need to worship him. Indeed I don't think I would like him/her/it very much if he/she/it is anything like the descriptions in the bible!

NB - For "prove" read "proof"...!

[ST88]

I would have to see some advantage in order to worship these Tralfamadorians. The advantages of believing in God are clear; escape hell, which is eternal imprisonment, earn endless bliss upon ceasation of mortal life, and collect $200 and pass go. If I were created by the daleks as one of many attempts to evolve the best sentient target practice dummy in the universe, there is no doubt I would rebel.

But, Corvus, surely these attitudes are based on the pre-existence of a book like the Bible. Assume for the moment that the Daleks had a similar book that just suddenly appeared -- everything laid out in terms of how the Earth evolved into the planet of meat-slaves it is now, and it has a similar air of authenticity that the Bible has. Do you feel that the legitimacy of the Bible rests in its antiquity, or is there something specific about Christianity that gives it more weight?

Surely you're not buying into the BBC's anti-Dalek propaganda about their true natures.

[Arch]

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

I'm not familiar with that verse. What's the reference?

Out of all I typed you picked one, one you say you never heard of. What about the rest. Do we actually discuss what people type anymore. So I will go and search for the exact verse. Will that make you actually address the rest of my post? Of all I said you could only say in response is you didn't hear of one of them.....

[Corvus]

I would have to see some advantage in order to worship these Tralfamadorians. The advantages of believing in God are clear; escape hell, which is eternal imprisonment, earn endless bliss upon ceasation of mortal life, and collect $200 and pass go. If I were created by the daleks as one of many attempts to evolve the best sentient target practice dummy in the universe, there is no doubt I would rebel.

But, Corvus, surely these attitudes are based on the pre-existence of a book like the Bible. Assume for the moment that the Daleks had a similar book that just suddenly appeared -- everything laid out in terms of how the Earth evolved into the planet of meat-slaves it is now, and it has a similar air of authenticity that the Bible has. Do you feel that the legitimacy of the Bible rests in its antiquity, or is there something specific about Christianity that gives it more weight?

Oh no, I think you misunderstand me. There is nothing about the Bible that gives it more weight than any other holy book. Perhaps I wrongly entered into the discussion believing that upon knowing the existence of God, we also know his attributes, and that since it is "God" with a capital "G" we are discussing, I can assume we are discussing the attributes of the Christian God. Sorry, I should have been more clear. But the fact remains, there must be some advantage for me to worship a creator if that creator reveals himself to me.

Surely you're not buying into the BBC's anti-Dalek propaganda about their true natures.

Of course! A reputable organisation such as the BBC would never deceive me. And it has in the past represented an opposing point of view in Spike Milligan's documentary on the life of a good-natured Dalek trying to control the instincts that drive him to DESTROY, entitled Pakistani Daleks. The proof that the Time Lords from Gallifrey are benevolent is in the peaceful existence of earth. I can live here without fear of ever encountering a hostile alien life form, thanks to the Celestial Intervention Agency's (CIA) subtle control over the renegade Time Lord, The Doctor.

[hannahjoy]

Out of all I typed you picked one, one you say you never heard of. What about the rest. Do we actually discuss what people type anymore. So I will go and search for the exact verse. Will that make you actually address the rest of my post? Of all I said you could only say in response is you didn't hear of one of them.....

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

When you tell me Bible reference for that, I'll address the rest of your post.

[Arch]

Out of all I typed you picked one, one you say you never heard of. What about the rest. Do we actually discuss what people type anymore. So I will go and search for the exact verse. Will that make you actually address the rest of my post? Of all I said you could only say in response is you didn't hear of one of them.....

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

When you tell me Bible reference for that, I'll address the rest of your post.

The Proverbial cliché: the road to hell is paved with good intentions, is derived from Proverbs chapter 14:12 and 16:25. It shows that although a man may believe he is right, is doing good or has good intentions, he can still be on the road to destruction. * Earlier variants of this proverb are recorded as "Hell is paved with good intentions." recorded as early as 1670, and an even earlier variant by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux "Hell is full of good intentions or desires."

THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS.
Lets see what the Bible has to say about this.

Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

Proverbs 14:12 (King James Version)
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
http://www.simplebiblestudies.com/Suzzahdie.htm

This is an interpretation of scripture taught by Christians and has become a cliché of sorts. This same interpretation can be seen from the Vatican to Baptist and many in between. According to Christians this is the interpretation of that quote that expresses GODS view on good intentions. It is also used to explain why Uzzah in the bible died when he was only trying to help keep the Arc of the Covenant from hitting the ground during the time of the Israelites. Here are many Christian sites using this Proverb and it's interpretation.

http://sermonsbymark.homestead.com/file ... _Talks.htm
http://www.gracefw.org/sermons/sermon080303.htm
http://ladyofroses.org/serpent.htm
http://www.truthseek.net/wordfaith.html
http://members.aol.com/Cwsermons/uzzah.index.html
http://www.mlp.org/resources/pray94.html
http://www.tldm.org/directives/d127.htm

If GOD says a man can do what he thinks is right or good but still go to hell. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is exactly what he is saying as your fellow Christian reverends, pastors and popes have pointed out.

Now that you have the biblical reference for that statement, maybe you can address the rest of what was said instead of trying to get away from the topic by always trying to find a point to pick that you hope doesn't coincide with the bible.

Clearly seems to be an evasive maneuver you like to use a lot.

[hannahjoy]

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

When you tell me Bible reference for that, I'll address the rest of your post.

Notice what I agreed to. I freely admit that the proverb does "coincide" with Biblical teaching, but as you attributed the proverb itself to God, I ask for proof in the form of a specific verse or verses. You are aware you have not yet provided that.

If you will either point me to the verse which says "the road to destruction (I'll accept "hell") is paved with good intentions" or admit, in a civil and non-accusing manner, that you were mistaken in attributing that proverb directly to God, then I will address the rest of your post. In fact, I'm tempted to agree to do that if you simply say anything in a civil and non-accusing manner. Considering the general tone of your remarks, I'm not inclined to get into any lengthy debate with you.

On a forum like this, you cannot expect such a mistake to be overlooked.

Hannah Joy

[Arch]

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

When you tell me Bible reference for that, I'll address the rest of your post.

Notice what I agreed to. I freely admit that the proverb does "coincide" with Biblical teaching, but as you attributed the proverb itself to God, I ask for proof in the form of a specific verse or verses. You are aware you have not yet provided that.

If you will either point me to the verse which says "the road to destruction (I'll accept "hell") is paved with good intentions" or admit, in a civil and non-accusing manner, that you were mistaken in attributing that proverb directly to God, then I will address the rest of your post. In fact, I'm tempted to agree to do that if you simply say anything in a civil and non-accusing manner. Considering the general tone of your remarks, I'm not inclined to get into any lengthy debate with you.

On a forum like this, you cannot expect such a mistake to be overlooked.

Hannah Joy

First off sweety I don't really care if you ever debate with me.
Secondly none of the post was direct quotes from the bible I will post them for you again.

Naw I think it is talking more about who would like a GOD that,

Holds and displays all the negative emotions of humanity, but is supposed to be above us

Killed the whole world(the whole world) because he got mad that man did exactly what he knew man would do when he created them.

That started racisim on the planet by choosing a people calling then his chosen people, thus creating the idea of a superior people on this planet.

That allowed his choosen people to kill many a nations like the caananites, who hosted their ancestor Abraham with no issue as he lived among them.

Who cursed a Pharoah because abaraham lied about Sarah being his wife.

Who created a law that he knew no one could keep, then had people killed and persecuted by these laws for over 3000 years until he decided to change his mind and cancel out the law and die so no one would be held under the law anymore.

Who created men that he knew he would eventually have to put in some everlasting eternal furnace to be tortured forever. Mind you he knew this when he created them and created anyway.

Who says the sun shines on the wicked and the righteous the same, but then tells everyone to be righteous anyway.

Who says the good die young while the wicked linger, but then tell you to be good anyway.

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions, what? But then tells you to have good intentions.

Who says the road to salvation is narrow and few will even find it, knowing they will never find it he is still going to send them to this eternal furnance.

Who says I love you but I am going to destroy one third of you in a terrible tribulation that will be so horrific that people will want to die.

And who says when in this horrific tribulation when people look for deaththey won't be able to find it. So they will want to do die but he won't let them.

And after all that he is going to cast then into the lake of fire to suffer some more. All this because they couldn't find the road to salvation which he made so narrow that few would find it.

On top of that he left the most gastly representatives to announce his messsage in modern times. like catholic baby molesters and rich preachers. Plus nice everyday people who mean well but whole doctrines are based on a book riddled with errors.

THAT'S THE GOD HE IS SPEAKING OF

Not one time did I say that the bible said anything. Each of these statements are in reference to either something taught by Christians or something I saw in the bible. However I never once quoted the bible in any of them. I never once said THE BIBLE SAID.

You then asked for the scriptural reference for that statement. REFERENCE doesn't mean exact quote it means the scripture that the statement is based on. You didn't ask for a scripture that said exactly that because there is no scriptures that says exactly what anyone of those statements says.

Again an excuse not to deal with the topic at hand. You actually made the mistake and maybe you should apologize for the fact of assuming I said the exact wording was in the bible which I never said. Any yooohoo can tell none of those statements are direct quotes from the bible.

Please grown up and debate like an adult. If the proverb is interpreted to mean that then that means its saying that. If god said a man can do something thinking it to be right and it can lead to destruction that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying the road to destruction is paved with good intentions. Like I said as YOUR bible teachers teach it.

I never said once that anything in that post was a direct quote, get over it

The bible doesn't say there a trinity, but you christians say it does by way of interpretation all day long. Now all of a sudden you a stickler for exact quotation, even when it obvious I wasn't doing exact quotes. In fact if I had known that you were asking fo ra direct quote that said that. I wouldn't have even answered you because I would have known you were playing diversion tactics. Especially when it is clear not one of those statements is a direct quote from the bible. Come on On top of that you admit that is a Christian teaching of that proverb. So you are the ones who say that is what GOD is saying.

[hannahjoy]

Who says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions.

1) You are speaking of God, correct? So I can, without changing your meaning, replace "who" with "God", correct?
"God says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions."
So you said that God says it.

2) The Bible purports to be God's Word. Moreover, you claimed to be presenting God as He is described in the Bible.

potwalloper. wrote:
To start things off - if God's existence were proven I would not feel any need to worship him. Indeed I don't think I would like him/her/it very much if he/she/it is anything like the descriptions in the bible!

After your list you wrote:

THAT'S THE GOD HE IS SPEAKING OF

i.e. the God described in the Bible
3) If "[the God described in the Bible] says the road to destruction is paved with good intentions", it is logical to ask where this saying of His can be found in the Bible.

I wasn't trying to create a diversion, and I didn't intend for the discussion to get this complicated. That phrase stood out to me, because I know the Bible fairly well and had never seen that saying in it before, though I had seen it other places. It's not uncommon for a phrase to be mistakenly attributed to the Bible, when it in fact comes from Shakespeare or some other well-known writer. I asked a simple question, and was not trying to debate anything, like an adult or not.

Again an excuse not to deal with the topic at hand. You actually made the mistake and maybe you should apologize for the fact of assuming I said the exact wording was in the bible which I never said. Any yooohoo can tell none of those statements are direct quotes from the bible.

First, I don't need an excuse not to deal with a topic - I'm not obligated to reply to anything on this forum.
Second, many of those statements are direct quotes from the Bible. That's why one of them stood out to me as not being from the Bible.

Now do you see how the question logically rose in my mind when I read your post?

Hannah Joy

[Corvus]

Again an excuse not to deal with the topic at hand. You actually made the mistake and maybe you should apologize for the fact of assuming I said the exact wording was in the bible which I never said. Any yooohoo can tell none of those statements are direct quotes from the bible.

Please grown up and debate like an adult. If the proverb is interpreted to mean that then that means its saying that. If god said a man can do something thinking it to be right and it can lead to destruction that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying the road to destruction is paved with good intentions. Like I said as YOUR bible teachers teach it.

I never said once that anything in that post was a direct quote, get over it

The bible doesn't say there a trinity, but you christians say it does by way of interpretation all day long. Now all of a sudden you a stickler for exact quotation, even when it obvious I wasn't doing exact quotes. In fact if I had known that you were asking fo ra direct quote that said that. I wouldn't have even answered you because I would have known you were playing diversion tactics. Especially when it is clear not one of those statements is a direct quote from the bible. Come on On top of that you admit that is a Christian teaching of that proverb. So you are the ones who say that is what GOD is saying.

Arch, please tone down the condescension and try to use a little more civility when explaining yourself. Indeed, explaining yourself is all that is required, as we the readers can quite easily interpret other's actions, and can establish for ourselves whether another person is using diversionary tactics or debating like a child. As it stands, I see no evidence of these things.