An olive branch for Christmas

[potwalloper.]

So many debates in this forum are based on the adversarial approach to debate.

Would an approach based on the examination of common interests be more constructive or are the positions of atheists and christians so mutually exclusive that adversarial debate is the only way forward?

Are there any commonalities of purpose in christians and atheists?

Do we need to focus on these more and on argument demolition less?

Information on interest based negotiation is here http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/ ... tframe.htm

Or is this just twaddle and we should continue as we are?

[youngborean]

Are you willing to suggest something definable that fits for all atheists? I think the idea is great, however there is not a consistent definable world view of atheists, becasue there belief is based more on what they don't believe then what they do. For instance there is no athoritative atheist scripture that would encourage charity, good-will etc. However, if atheists do ascribe to these things then I will also offer the olive branch of support for their efforts individually. But collectively I find it harder to define common interests since the only thing it takes to be atheist is a disbelief in a diety. I would argue that it only takes faith in Jesus to be a Christian, but there are other broader issues that connect christians. But maybe we could meet at the middle and say neither of us know for certain and we'll wait and find out.

[potwalloper.]

Are you willing to suggest something definable that fits for all atheists? I think the idea is great, however there is not a consistent definable world view of atheists, becasue there belief is based more on what they don't believe then what they do.

I agree.

I suppose areas to start could be those fundamental principles to which we might all subscribe:

Right to life;
Right not to be tortured or unlawfully imprisoned;
Right to liberty and security of person;
Right to a fair hearing;
Right to freedom of speech, thought, conscience and religion;
Right to peaceful assembly;

Many of these are manifest in the Christian worldview and also (hopefully) in the worldview of atheists and agnostics.

Whilst we may have to agree to disagree on the issue of the existence of a deity finding common ground in the fundamental areas of human interaction in a more general sense may assist with understanding and appreciation of the views of others...

Just a thought

[otseng]

So many debates in this forum are based on the adversarial approach to debate.

I'm not sure "adversarial" would be the best way to describe debates here. To me, it connotes animosity, which I hope would be something rarely found here. I do not see a problem with debates, as long as respect and civility is observed. As a matter of fact, I believe truth is revealed by debates. Certainly no one side has all the answers (though some might believe they do) and debates can show what can stand up to scrutiny.

Are there any commonalities of purpose in christians and atheists?

I'm sure there are many.

Do we need to focus on these more and on argument demolition less?

I would argue no. Plus, this entire forum is established for debating. It's even in the site name.

Or is this just twaddle and we should continue as we are?

I have considered the possibility of adding another subforum along the lines of "Putting our heads together" to solve problems in a singular, instead of a polar, manner. For example, "How can we lower the number of abortions?" I believe this is something that everyone can agree on. Or "How can we lower the incidence of divorce?" There are many keen minds here, and put together, we might be able to solve all the world's problems. OK, perhaps just a handful of problems.

[potwalloper.]

So many debates in this forum are based on the adversarial approach to debate.

I'm not sure "adversarial" would be the best way to describe debates here. To me, it connotes animosity, which I hope would be something rarely found here.

"Adversarial" is a commonly used descriptor for debate or negotiation that takes the form of people taking up a position and defending that position, as opposed to the exploration of common interests and the identification of areas where views overlap. The outcome of this style of debate/negotiation tends to be a winner and a loser. No animosity but simply winners and losers.

This approach tends to cause entrenchment of views rather than those rare moments when you smile and think "yes I can agree with that"

As a matter of fact, I believe truth is revealed by debates. Certainly no one side has all the answers (though some might believe they do) and debates can show what can stand up to scrutiny.

I have to disagree. I don't think that debates of this nature do reveal the truth. They may reveal who is the most skilful debater, or who has the most knowledge. The logical nature, or otherwise, of positions stated may be examined critically but as we all know logic is not necessarily truth

Or is this just twaddle and we should continue as we are?

I have considered the possibility of adding another subforum along the lines of "Putting our heads together" to solve problems in a singular, instead of a polar, manner.

I think that this would be a good idea - it would do us all good to try to reach consensus on some issues - you never know we might even appreciate the other person's position better and use this knowledge constructively in debates elsewhere in the forum.

[otseng]

I have considered the possibility of adding another subforum along the lines of "Putting our heads together" to solve problems in a singular, instead of a polar, manner.

I think that this would be a good idea - it would do us all good to try to reach consensus on some issues - you never know we might even appreciate the other person's position better and use this knowledge constructively in debates elsewhere in the forum.

OK, I've created the new subforum - Putting Our Heads Together.

[Amphigorey]

Are you willing to suggest something definable that fits for all atheists? I think the idea is great, however there is not a consistent definable world view of atheists, becasue there belief is based more on what they don't believe then what they do.

"consistent definable world view of atheists" = no gods, no supernatural.
Pretty concise and easy. The antithesis, those who do believe in god(s) and the supernatural include Hindus, Moslems, Pagans, Christians, etc, etc. Far less consensus on your side I think. I've seen it posted here that there are over 8000 Christian sects alone.

And atheists hold many ethical values or beliefs dear, but this site is about Christian beliefs vs non-Christian belief, so our non-Christian belief is always interpreted as "believing in nothing".

For instance there is no athoritative atheist scripture that would encourage charity, good-will etc.

Yeah, no scripture. That's 'cause its not a religion. But plenty of important writers who share an athiest world view and quite a bit of consensus on atheist thought. You might try visiting a web site or two:

http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml
http://www.freethinker.co.uk/
http://www.strongatheism.com/
... and plenty of others

But no authoritarian, final word on what to think. That's a big difference.

However, if atheists do ascribe to these things

Not sure what you're referring to here.

I suppose areas to start could be those fundamental principles to which we might all subscribe:

Right to life;
Right not to be tortured or unlawfully imprisoned;
Right to liberty and security of person;
Right to a fair hearing;
Right to freedom of speech, thought, conscience and religion;
Right to peaceful assembly;

Sounds like the Bill of Rights. Try the Declaration of Independence's Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You could be even more basic and note that since we're all human other shared values would be:

A sense of moral right and wrong. Indignation and disgust at injustice. A sense of charity and/or empathy. Strong allegiance to family, children, friends, our local political group or neighborhood.

I'm sure its quite a long list.

Merry Christmas!