Let's talk about predestination

[scorpia]

for once I'll just like to see what everyone has to say. Beliefs in predestination tend to vary, from total to nil. Well here's a couple of things I'd like to ask to all; If God is predestinating everyone, how far would this predestination go? Would he be manipulating our actions into so many situations for who knows what reason? Would he go so far as to manipulate what we think? He is omnipotent, so if he can manipulate everyone into becoming a christian, why doesn't he?

And for those who don't believe in god or predestination; Who's to say time isn't already set? Just considering the possibility that time may be predestined and set in stone once the universe was formed, with or without God.

[Bro Dave]

If God is predestinating everyone, how far would this predestination go? Would he be manipulating our actions into so many situations for who knows what reason?

First, God created the Universe to escape His absoluteness, and to experience the one thing unavailble to him; growth. By creating us, and givng us free will, there are infinite possibilities that open for sharing our individual growths, as we become "perfect, even as He is perfect".

Would he go so far as to manipulate what we think?

That would completely negate the reason for our creation, would it not?

He is omnipotent, so if he can manipulate everyone into becoming a christian, why doesn't he?

Well, maybe Christianity is not the "only" way to attain the Father. Christians have come to believe they have sole ownership of Jesus. Because he is the only "Living Bridge" between finite mortals, and Infinite God, they also have come to believe they provide the only access.

And for those who don't believe in god or predestination; Who's to say time isn't already set? Just considering the possibility that time may be predestined and set in stone once the universe was formed, with or without God.

God created time and space, and so existing outside both, the perspective of past and future from His side is meaningless. All exist to Him at once. This makes our heads hurt, so we just go on creating explainations that fit our abilities to understand them.

Bro Dave

[juliod]

Beliefs in predestination tend to vary, from total to nil.

You are groping towards three famous problem simultaneously.

1) The Problem of Evil. If god is all-powerful and all-good, then there can be no evil anywhere, ever. Since there is evil (define it however you want) god must be either not all-powerful, or not all-good (or both).

2) The Free-Will/Omniscience Paradox. Many beliefs hold that god is eternal, omniscient, and know the future as well as the past. If that were the case then free-will cannot exist. God would already know your future decisions, and so you experience only the illusion of choice. If god knows you will have chicken for lunch tomorrow, then you will have it. There is a zero chance ou will choose anything else. You are fixed.

3) Determinism. This is the question as to whether the universe is government by physical laws of absolute accuracy such that if you know the state of the universe at one time you can (in principle at least) calculate all the future states.

The first two problems are created by religion, and since there is no god, we can ignore them. The third problem is not yet answered conclusively. But I think most people agree that the universe is not deterministic, mainly due to "quantum uncertainty". At the very finest, subatomic, level there is the principle that certain things cannot be known. The physical laws become dominated by probabilistic functions. You cannot know for sure if that electron is here, or over there. It's indeterminate.

DanZ

[Bro Dave]

juliod wrote:

The first two problems are created by religion, and since there is no god, we can ignore them.

juliod, what do you have against the scientific approach and open-mindness? You must know that you cannot prove that there is no God. I, on the other hand, cannot prove to you that there is a god. It is entirely a personal experience, open to all, but limited to those who choose to want to know God. As for not being scientific, how can you want to start a discussion by excluding as impossible, any area in which you admitedly have no knowledge?



Bro Dave

[chrispalasz]

From my Christian perspective:

I believe in God's absolute and complete sovereignty.

Sure, I believe in Free Will: Everyone has the Free Will to choose what God has created them to. The term "Free Will" has truly been warped to mean that we are in control of our lives, when that is simply not true at all - especially if we are all to assume that the Christian God is in fact God. People seem to want to believe that God gives them freedom of individuality to choose whatever they want. The concept of Free Will as it is understood today is just a fictional construct to amend our own insecurity about reality.

I've gone into a pretty good depth on this issue in the Predestination thread. The simple reason I hold these views is the following:

1. The idea that God gave mankind "Free Will" simply is not supported by the Bible. Not only does the Bible never say that God gave everyone Free Will, but the entire thing supports the contrary.

As for the questions you've asked: I'm afraid I can't go any further than I already have. To do so would be entering the realm of Philosophy and speculation. While I don't know the answers to all your questions, I do trust that God is correct in the decisions He makes and that His way is the best way. I praise Him for not handing out "Free Will"... that would be a disaster. 8)

Sorry I have to bail on Philosophy. I've frustrated myself enough with that stuff; I just don't see a point. If you want to read some good Philosophy, check out St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) and St. Augustine (The Problem of Free Will).

[chrispalasz]

Hey Dan Z

Glad you could join the discussion.

juliod: The first two problems are created by religion, and since there is no god, we can ignore them.

Are you claiming, here, that you positively have the knowledge that no God exists?

Or are you saying that there is no evidence to show that God exists (which, in and of itself, does not make the conclusion you appear to be stating)?

Or do you simply believe there is no God?

There is an inherent problem with any of these options. Religion has not "created" these problems; instead, it is because religion exists that we are able to see these problems that have always existed.

[juliod]

You must know that you cannot prove that there is no God.

Why would you say that? I admit that in order to conclusively prove that some version of god does not exist I have to wait for a theist to define their god. But since all known gods are full of massive internal conflicts (such as the Problem of Evil and the Omniscience/Free-will Paradox) I am not aware of any god that could be described as "possibly real".

I, on the other hand, cannot prove to you that there is a god.

You could if god were real. I mean, there is little difficulty in proving that gravity exists, or showing that the force of gravity is proportional to mass, etc.

It is entirely a personal experience, open to all, but limited to those who choose to want to know God.

Is that the same thing as saying that god is a made-up "invisible friend"?

DanZ

[juliod]

Are you claiming, here, that you positively have the knowledge that no God exists?

Not only that, but there are no supernatural beings, objects, powers or events of any kind.

No gods or demons. No fairies or dragons. No TV psychics or dowsers. None of those are real, and it is already known that they are not real.

Or are you saying that there is no evidence to show that God exists

That too.

Or do you simply believe there is no God?

I positively assert that there are no gods.


Religion has not "created" these problems; instead, it is because religion exists that we are able to see these problems that have always existed.

No! The forst two "problems" only exist because humans have invented concepts like an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity. The Problem of Evil, and the Omniscience/Free-Will Paradox show that no such being exists. Once you accept that "god" doesn't exist those problems cease to be of interest.

DanZ

[aprilannies]

From my Christian perspective:

I believe in God's absolute and complete sovereignty.

Sure, I believe in Free Will: Everyone has the Free Will to choose what God has created them to. The term "Free Will" has truly been warped to mean that we are in control of our lives, when that is simply not true at all - especially if we are all to assume that the Christian God is in fact God. People seem to want to believe that God gives them freedom of individuality to choose whatever they want. The concept of Free Will as it is understood today is just a fictional construct to amend our own insecurity about reality.

I have several problems with this.

1. The idea that God gave mankind "Free Will" simply is not supported by the Bible. Not only does the Bible never say that God gave everyone Free Will, but the entire thing supports the contrary.

What about nearly the entire book of Genesis? The fall of man? Did God create man just so he could disobey Him, and begin us on this path of worldly suffering? What's the point? Is God a sadist then? Why would God need to test Abraham's faith in Gen. 22 if his actions were preordained?

I find that the problem of free will is resolved when we realize that God created time, therefore he is OUTSIDE of time. He is in all times simutanously (I can't even spell that word correctly enough for spell check to pick it up, my apologies ).

Edit: Bro Dave actually said this better, I missed it my first time around.

God created time and space, and so existing outside both, the perspective of past and future from His side is meaningless. All exist to Him at once. This makes our heads hurt, so we just go on creating explainations that fit our abilities to understand them.

Furthermore, what would be the point of Jesus? If God could control all actions of every person, why not just control the actions of the 'chosen ones' going to heaven into following every letter of the law, therefore attaining heaven via the original covenant?

It just seems to be logical to me, but seeing how I'm not even a Christian, maybe it's not my point to make to begin with. 8)

If you want to read some good Philosophy, check out St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) and St. Augustine (The Problem of Free Will).

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. I keep meaning to read St. Thoman Aquinas, but never know where to start.

[chrispalasz]

Hi aprilannies!

I understand your objection. The questions you ask are certainly logical and common questions. Many of them are purely philisophical and not theological.

aprilannies: What about nearly the entire book of Genesis?

Even the book of Genesis says nothing about Free Will and does nothing to support the concept as we know it today. There is an infinite number of questions that can be asked but not answered regarding God. The only answers I have are the ones He gives us.

As I said: I already discussed the predestination issue from a logical perspective on the Predestination thread (not this one). Now I'm offering the primary basis for my views: The Bible supports it and does not support Free Will.

There are a lot of people that have problems with it... and that's okay. One doesn't need to hold these views to be a Christian - for that they only need to have faith in Christ. But if a person truly wants to know God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit the most they can... then there is no ignoring the Truth in Him, which is His complete sovereignty. 8)