The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

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AgnosticBoy
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The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.

Do a few bad cops make all police bad?

Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?

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Mithrae
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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #2

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:29 pm
Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.
You're not even slightly disturbed by the exceptionally high rate at which American police kill American civilians? Whether or not one thinks the problem is exaggerated (and it's hard to see how that could be the case), claiming that it is nothing more than "scapegoating" seems disingenuous at best.

And just a few threads ago it was "white Americans" that were the scapegoat, wasn't it... having trouble making up your mind?

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AgnosticBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:29 pm
Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?
That's a little misleading. As I've pointed out in another thread,
  • What's really got me thinking that systemic 'racism' might actually be an appropriate description for all of these disparities is the vast gap in downward economic mobility. On average, if your family is relatively wealthy you've got a lot of things going for you: Better education, better role models, more stability, better contacts and networking opportunities. Kids born into the wealthiest 20% of society are much more likely to remain in that upper quintile. Unless they're black.
    "White children whose parents are in the top fifth of the income distribution have a 41.1 percent chance of staying there as adults; for Hispanic children, the rate is 30.6 percent, and for Asian-American children, 49.9 percent. But for black children, it’s only 18 percent, and for American Indian children only 23 percent."
    That's not a small gap. Poor early education or welfare dependency obviously cannot explain that discrepancy. Staggeringly, black children in well-off households have a worse than random chance of remaining in the upper quintile as adults; not only does their privileged background seem to offer little real advantage (as it does for white and Asian children, and to a lesser extent even Hispanic children) but it looks as though there is some kind of widespread active impediment to black families even remaining well-off from generation to generation.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #3

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to Mithrae in post #2]

Your points don't take away from my argument. You're comparing Blacks to Whites as if being as rich or in some other identical circumstance is the only way for blacks to prosper.

I'd rather compare Blacks with a higher education versus those without higher education. Get me some data on that first before concluding that education does not matter at all.

Also take a look at your study again which clearly shows that Asians are even doing better than whites. So how is that racism caused by Whites when a minority group is doing better than them?

Also, what about those Whites that have failed given the fact that they are more likely to fail (60% chance of failing) then to stay in the same economic status? Could it be that the reason they're failing is the exact same reason that Blacks are faiing as well but it's just that blacks are failing at a greater percentage? Surely you not going to say that those 60% of chance for Whites to fail is due to racism against them.
"White children whose parents are in the top fifth of the income distribution have a 41.1 percent chance of staying there as adults; for Hispanic children, the rate is 30.6 percent, and for Asian-American children, 49.9 percent. But for black children, it’s only 18 percent, and for American Indian children only 23 percent."

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #4

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]

So, George Floyd was murdered by the police due to his education level? Did Derek Chauvin interview Mr. Floyd concerning his education before murdering him?


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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:49 pm
[Replying to Mithrae in post #2]

Your points don't take away from my argument. You're comparing Blacks to Whites as if being as rich or in some other identical circumstance is the only way for blacks to prosper.

I'd rather compare Blacks with a higher education versus those without higher education. Get me some data on that first before concluding that education does not matter at all.
No-one has ever said that "education doesn't matter at all"; you are claiming that education is the only thing that matters, an absurd claim without any evidence, and now demanding others to do you homework for you. Educational disparities are a problem. So is your police system, as I showed (for but one example) in terms of the exceptionally high rate at which your cops kill civilians; having the world's highest incarceration rate is another obviously absurd consequence of a system oriented towards punitive punishment more than social support. Other issues besides education and police are important also (eg. access to healthcaee for one obvious example, or historically formal and ongoing credible reports of informal redlining in the algorithms used by lending branches of major banks). Simplistic 'answers' in a complex society are pretty much guaranteed to miss the mark and tend to be a hallmark of ideological rather than reasonable thinking.
Also take a look at your study again which clearly shows that Asians are even doing better than whites. So how is that racism caused by Whites when a minority group is doing better than them?
The two most historically oppressed groups in the USA are native Americans and african Americans; those are also the two groups with the worst outcomes in downward economic mobility, health, income, wealth etc. Pointing out that groups which have suffered less oppression have better outcomes is not a counter-argument, it's stating the bleeding obvious: Particularly in the case of a mostly more recent immigrant population such as asian Americans whose successful immigration applications tend to be skewed towards the more highly-skilled, educated and intelligent.
Also, what about those Whites that have failed given the fact that they are more likely to fail (60% chance of failing) then to stay in the same economic status? Could it be that the reason they're failing is the exact same reason that Blacks are faiing as well but it's just that blacks are failing at a greater percentage? Surely you not going to say that those 60% of chance for Whites to fail is due to racism against them.
You don't seem to understand what these statistics are about. If America became a perfect individual meritocracy tomorrow (or had become one decades ago), every new person born should have a roughly 20% chance of being in the upper quintile as adults, regardless of whether their parents were in the bottom or top quintile themselves. It's not a perfect individual meritocracy of course, and wealthy parents tend to confer significant benefits to their children not just in terms of inheritance but also stability, good example/habits, education, contacts/networking opportunities and so on. The fact that children of well-off parents have a better than random chance of being well-off themselves (and far better chances than children of poor parents) reflects that reality. But you seem to think that children of well-off parents should have a 100% chance of being well-off themselves...? That their ~60% 'failure' rate is somehow a bad thing? That's absurd, obviously; no, it should not be literally impossible for wealthy kids to squander their opportunities or be surpassed by more ambitious peers. Having wealthy parents already confers enough of an advantage as it is.

Except for those who are black of course.
"White children whose parents are in the top fifth of the income distribution have a 41.1 percent chance of staying there as adults; for Hispanic children, the rate is 30.6 percent, and for Asian-American children, 49.9 percent. But for black children, it’s only 18 percent, and for American Indian children only 23 percent."

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #6

Post by woodtick »

I'm not in support of this BLM stuff because whites get murdered by police more than blacks. Money and education have a little to do with the black crime issue. There was an article a few days ago in the NH Concord Monitor that blamed the high percentage of black incarceration on racism!

With cops it's more of an issue of arrogance, cowardice, and incompetence. They try to say that there are only a few bad cops. The truth is roughly 50% of cops are 'bad', and then they get away with murder when they do the wrong thing - and in my experience, cops are notorious for doing the 'wrong' thing.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #7

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:29 pm
Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.

Do a few bad cops make all police bad?

Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?


Education is the magic solution? Well, I have two college degrees but have been a victim of police harrassment. I know other people who were "minority" and have had the same experiences and worse.

Education is not the solution. Police reform and dissolution such as that done in some cities are the solution.

As Reagan said "it is time to get government off your back". If you are a principled conservative, or any one of real priniciple, you have no choice but to agree.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #8

Post by koko »

Kentucky town hires social workers instead of more officers - and the results are surprising | Wave 3 News

https://www.wave3.com/2020/07/28/kentuc ... urprising/


Faced with a tight budget and rising demands on its 17 officer police department, the City of Alexandria in Campbell County tried something different. Instead of hiring an additional officer and taking on the added expenses of equipping that officer, the police chief at the time hired a social worker to respond in tandem with officers.
After four years on the job, Pompilio said there has been a significant drop in repeat 911 calls with approximately 15 percent fewer people going to jail.
“It was close to a $45,000 to $50,000 annual savings from hiring a police officer the first time to hiring a social worker,” Ward said. “They (police social workers) started solving problems for people in our community and for our agency that we’ve never been able to solve before.”




Police reform - instead of more trouble, the positive results are "extraordinary". Even the police chief applauds.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #9

Post by Mithrae »

koko wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:13 am
911 calls
You'd think they could invest some money into a public information campaign to hammer into people's thick skulls that "guy walking down the street 'looking suspicious'" is not an emergency, and train their 911 operators not to pass along frivolous calls (while neglecting little details like "he's unarmed" or "it's probably a toy"). While officers on the scene obviously bear primary responsibility for killing 12 year olds and people buying toy guns from WalMart, it's still ridiculous that they get sent as 'emergency response' to those scenes without key information (or that they were sent at all, in the case of Elijah Mcclain).

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #10

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:29 pm
Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police.

How much money does the USA spend on education? Per Google:


Answer:

Question: How much money does the United States spend on public elementary and secondary schools? Response: Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary schools in the United States in 2015–16 amounted to $706 billion, or $13,847 per public school student enrolled in the fall (in constant 2017–18 dollars).


https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66



This does not include any portion of the $1.7 TRILLION student debt for college and post graduate education.




All this means the USA spends well over $2 trillion in education. And what has it availed us? We spend more money on education but have a society that is more divided than ever with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. So why waste more money on useless education???



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