Racism in America - How should we address it?

[otseng]

George Floyd’s Murder Shows Once More That We Cannot Wait For White America to End Racism

George Floyd was murdered, and it was captured on camera. Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin had his knee pinned against Floyd’s neck for close to eight minutes. We heard a haunting repetition of the words “I can’t breathe.” Floyd cried out for his deceased mother and called out for his children as he desperately clung to life. Chauvin sat there, smug, hand in his pocket, with little regard for the man dying underneath the pressure of his knee. All of this over someone allegedly trying to use a counterfeit twenty-dollar bill at a local deli.

For debate:
- How should we address the racism in America?

[koko]

You really trust the BLM and Antifa mob more than the police? Who do you suppose did all the looting, who would you call if it happened to you? Your local community organizer? A social worker? Your local gang leader?

Why do you think Antifa wears black ski-masks during their violent protests? What are they hiding? (this is before the pandemic, when it is now fashionable and often required to wear masks)

I saw footage of the looting. It was not committed by the men and women in blue. It was committed by black youth, with very few exceptions. What gives them the right? Who do they think they are?

Why is the Justice department now taking action against Antifa? Because they are choir boys?

By the way, criminal as they may be, I see no evidence at all that "white supremacists" are causing the trouble at protests. Only your unfounded charges and those on CNN. No evidence. The Left has an amazing propensity to shift the blame, and evade responsibility. And the inflammatory rhetoric on CNN, MSNBC and weak liberal politicians are a major part of the problem.

One NYC councilmen Levine said that if we now see a spike in Covid 19, don't blame the protests, blame racism. Amazing propensity to evade and shift responsibility. Wow, great science, "racism" causes the Coronavirus. Who knew!

You still insist BLM and Antifa are at the forefront of the violence? OK let's see you prove it by giving me online pics of mug shots issued to members of both groups. Arrest records and criminal complaints are a matter of public record and will readily identify these people as members. Include city/state/federal pics and docket numbers of court cases in which all three government jurisdictions are prosecuting both groups. Bear in mind that since these acts of violence are across the USA there are special laws which forbid moving from state to state in order to commit crimes. Both institutions would now be targeted by the FBI, Treasury Dept, FEMA, and possibly others. Because of the Constitution's supremacy clause federal prosecution would be prioritized over state/local prosecution. Kindly present photos of these "terrorists" under arrest by federal forces. In fact last week the Justice Department announced the arrest of three men connected to the far-right 'Boogaloo' movement who were allegedly plotting to incite violence at protests in Las Vegas. Secretary Barr has alleged that some "anarchist group" with "antifa-like views" are involved but he did not specify anyone by name. He did not mention BLM as actors in the violence at all - so where is your proof that it is? But he did say "foreign elements" were involved but, again, did not define who specifically these groups or people were. How would you know since they have not been identified?

[koko]

2 men from Ohio busted with cache of weapons during NYC protests


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/2- ... li=BBnb7Kz

Authorities are praising the protesters -- whose tip helped police catch two men from Ohio, who were looking to incite violence in New York City.

It was protesters marching in the streets who called police.

The driver of a car with Ohio license plates was spotted with a machete just blocks from a demonstration.

"They said, 'this is not right, something's wrong with this picture'," 84th Precinct Executive Officer Capt. Melody Robinson said.




If protesters are BLM and Antifa, why on earth would they be reporting these criminals to the police?


Watch the video carefully at about 1:10 where you see white supremacist paraphanelia among the weapons found by police. BLM and Antifa do not carry such paraphanelia. But white supremacists who are agitating for a race war do.

[emilynghiem]

You really want to go down this road? Comparing isolated instances of violence by police to deliberate acts of arson, violent looting etc by the likes of BLM and Antifa? Really??

Citing police misteps in a vacuum conveniently ignoring the larger context of police at these "peaceful protests" getting pelted by bricks, bottles filled with cement, shot at, and stabbed, AND run over by SUVs?

It's war out there, and sometimes there's unintended causalties when police try to save more lives and businesses. Whose side are you on? The forces of chaos? Or the forces of law and order. Don't forget, the side of law and order includes justice for George Floyd, who's killers have already been charged, under the legal system!

What do you think the mob would do to those 4 killers? Give them due process? I doubt it.

There is no proof BLM or Antifa committed any of the violence. On the contrary, links I have previously supplied indicate violence has been committed by police agent provocateurs, some white supremacists, and unorganized rabble.

None of the urban violence we have seen would have taken place if the police had not murdered George Floyd in cold blood. Furthermore, the anger and frustration people feel against criminal police has been going on for ages since those corrupt cops have been killing and abusing people all that time. And don't forget as Frank Serpico said nearly 50 years ago, we would not have massive drug trades (drugs which kill people by the thousands) if police did not control and spread drugs for their selfish profits. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, police are responsible for an on going racialist holocaust in the urban centers. While the violence we have seen in the recent news is abhorrent, it is pale in comparison to the holocaust created by the police.

Due process to those 4 cops? The Christian Bible says a life for a life. It's time to apply this Divine law so that we may have justice and a more peaceful society.

You really trust the BLM and Antifa mob more than the police? Who do you suppose did all the looting, who would you call if it happened to you? Your local community organizer? A social worker? Your local gang leader?

Why do you think Antifa wears black ski-masks during their violent protests? What are they hiding? (this is before the pandemic, when it is now fashionable and often required to wear masks)

I saw footage of the looting. It was not committed by the men and women in blue. It was committed by black youth, with very few exceptions. What gives them the right? Who do they think they are?

Why is the Justice department now taking action against Antifa? Because they are choir boys?

By the way, criminal as they may be, I see no evidence at all that "white supremacists" are causing the trouble at protests. Only your unfounded charges and those on CNN. No evidence. The Left has an amazing propensity to shift the blame, and evade responsibility. And the inflammatory rhetoric on CNN, MSNBC and weak liberal politicians are a major part of the problem.

One NYC councilmen Levine said that if we now see a spike in Covid 19, don't blame the protests, blame racism. Amazing propensity to evade and shift responsibility. Wow, great science, "racism" causes the Coronavirus. Who knew!

Dear @Elijah John
Without knowledge, training and responsibility for the laws,
that is WHY we cannot trust people to follow them. If they've
never been taught that the laws are there to protect them.

The first step to stopping the lawless "mob" behavior
is to work with individuals one on one, and make sure
they understand the laws, so we can have equal agreement
to enforce them and comply with authorities.

If people object or unable to comply, either
(a) they may have a mental or criminal disorder, in which case
they need counseling and should be screened for any addiction
or disability that makes them a danger, so they can be safely supervised and treated
(b) they have a complaint or political issue with authority
and need to resolve these grievances CIVILLY so it doesn't trigger violence or crime

Either way, by addressing the standards of civil law and police procedures
WITH every resident in each district, this is how communities can screen
out anyone with criminal issues in need of medical treatment or legal counseling.

That screening, similar to military or police required screening and training,
is the best way I know to prevent and deter crime, by earlier detection
and intervention into problems. Instead of waiting for this to escalate
into crime or abuse, or conflicts with authority including political protests or mobs.

[William]

otseng,

Shoot rubber bullets? Use tear gas? Implement martial law? These would only compound the problem.

Police shoot disabled maThey physically attack another old man and pretend he tripped:




Police use car to plow into crowd and cause injury:


None of these vicious acts of violence were justified in any way.


For years right wingers have been touting Second Amendment rights as a means to avert government tyranny. Strangely they are silent now in view of these government attacks on the citizenry. This is hypocrisy of the worse order.

You really want to go down this road? Comparing isolated instances of violence by police to deliberate acts of arson, violent looting etc by the likes of BLM and Antifa? Really??

Citing police misteps in a vacuum conveniently ignoring the larger context of police at these "peaceful protests" getting pelted by bricks, bottles filled with cement, shot at, and stabbed, AND run over by SUVs?

It's war out there, and sometimes there's unintended causalties when police try to save more lives and businesses. Whose side are you on? The forces of chaos? Or the forces of law and order. Don't forget, the side of law and order includes justice for George Floyd, who's killers have already been charged, under the legal system!

What do you think the mob would do to those 4 killers? Give them due process? I doubt it.

I expect such reasoning from a non-theist - someone who supports the systems of disparity - but it is surprising to me when I read this type of reasoning from a Theist - what's more - a theist who claims not to make YHWH in the image of man.

We are looking at symptoms of a system of disparity. I do not believe for a moment that YHWH endorses such systems as I understand YHWH as an Entity who wants the best for all humans and has made efforts to subtly point humanity in the direction of creating for ourselves/one another a global system of parity.

In replying as such, I am not endorsing the looting of property as an answer to the problem at hand. Rather I am saying we quite clearly should be viewing that as a symptom to a bigger problem we are all currently sharing in.

In order to view it as such, we really must be having to remove the speck from our own eyes.

[emilynghiem]

Dear @Elijah John and @koko
I think both sides are arguing they want to see fair DUE PROCESS.

The disparity between the sides is the lack of knowledge of the laws,
of experience in law enforcement and OWNERSHIP necessary for SELF GOVT.

The right generally has MORE educated people experienced with business ownership
and property rights, while the left has grown to represent those up to 150 years
BEHIND the CURVE because descendants of slaves were recovering from being
treating AS PROPERTY to catching up with everyone else in rights to OWN PROPERTY.

That curve doesn't just disappear and magically catch up overnight.
As late as 1964, Blacks still weren't equal under laws, and we are struggling
to catch ENTIRE GENERATIONS up with descendants of property owners
who founded the country in the 1700's. That is still going to take time.

Where this DISPARITY shows in teaching DUE PROCESS
are the Liberal and Progressive movements focused
on teaching the "role of govt is to secure public health and general welfare"
vs. the Conservatives teaching LIMITS on Govt
(ie not creating MORE laws depriving taxpayers of liberty and choice
"without DUE PROCESS" to prove WHO is causing abuse requiring these laws
and WHICH govt programs are necessitated by compelling interests and LEAST RESTRICTIVE)
so that people protect and retain
maximize LIBERTY to provide for health, welfare, social services and education
and not giving Govt unequal power to CONTROL these where
people give up that liberty to Govt (or to the Liberal Ideology
of REQUIRING taxes to be paid for social programs through Govt).

@Elijah John and @koko
IT'S NOT EITHER OR
IT'S NOT ONE CASE LESS OR MORE A VIOLATION THAN THE OTHER
IT'S BOTH
ALL THE ABOVE
BOTH levels of violations are still wrongful.

What we need, in order to be able to unite, is an agreement
on the laws in the first place. To agree that BOTH the political beliefs
of the left in securing public health as part of general welfare is within their free exercise of rights and beliefs.
AND ALSO (NOT IN CONFLICT WITH)
the political beliefs of the
right in terms of right to liberty and VOLUNTARY choice and compliance
so all sides have representation and protections of their interests and beliefs.

The LEFT in particular need to understand the DUE PROCESS arguments
that offset the otherwise UNCHECKED social programs through govt.

The RIGHT needs to accept and allow some form of the leftwing political beliefs
in Govt securing access to education, health care and now legal defense.

Both sides need to acknowledge the beliefs of the other that have been
threatened with further violation.

otseng,

Shoot rubber bullets? Use tear gas? Implement martial law? These would only compound the problem.

Police shoot disabled maThey physically attack another old man and pretend he tripped:




Police use car to plow into crowd and cause injury:


None of these vicious acts of violence were justified in any way.


For years right wingers have been touting Second Amendment rights as a means to avert government tyranny. Strangely they are silent now in view of these government attacks on the citizenry. This is hypocrisy of the worse order.

You really want to go down this road? Comparing isolated instances of violence by police to deliberate acts of arson, violent looting etc by the likes of BLM and Antifa? Really??

Citing police misteps in a vacuum conveniently ignoring the larger context of police at these "peaceful protests" getting pelted by bricks, bottles filled with cement, shot at, and stabbed, AND run over by SUVs?

It's war out there, and sometimes there's unintended causalties when police try to save more lives and businesses. Whose side are you on? The forces of chaos? Or the forces of law and order. Don't forget, the side of law and order includes justice for George Floyd, who's killers have already been charged, under the legal system!

What do you think the mob would do to those 4 killers? Give them due process? I doubt it.

[koko]

While everyone is certainly entitled to their views, no one is entitled to make unsubstantiated assertions, repeat those assertions, and then question why someone refuses to believe those claims.

Over and over again we keep seeing people here assert that BLM and Antifa have committed these crimes. Yet, not a shred of evidence has been offered to substantiate this claim. Again I ask, list for me the names of members of those groups who have been arrested. Post their mug shots. Give me concrete proof of these assertions.

By contrast, I have posted evidence that the government has asserted that BLM was NOT involved in any violence. Further, that while media acknowledge how Trump has asserted that Antifa has caused violence, they, too, have found no linkage between that group and the violence.

Again, I do not dispute anyone's right to harbor whatever beliefs they have. My objection is to people making claims that are clearly without any basis in truth whatsoever.

Let me conclude by saying that had this been a court of law where you are required to submit evidence as opposed to just making assertions, I as a lawyer for one side of the dispute would have won my case easily. This because I at least submit evidence as opposed to merely repeated unproven claims. Let's now end this matter by seeing the presentation of actual evidence of the claims made.

[emilynghiem]

While everyone is certainly entitled to their views, no one is entitled to make unsubstantiated assertions, repeat those assertions, and then question why someone refuses to believe those claims.

Over and over again we keep seeing people here assert that BLM and Antifa have committed these crimes. Yet, not a shred of evidence has been offered to substantiate this claim. Again I ask, list for me the names of members of those groups who have been arrested. Post their mug shots. Give me concrete proof of these assertions.

By contrast, I have posted evidence that the government has asserted that BLM was NOT involved in any violence. Further, that while media acknowledge how Trump has asserted that Antifa has caused violence, they, too, have found no linkage between that group and the violence.

Again, I do not dispute anyone's right to harbor whatever beliefs they have. My objection is to people making claims that are clearly without any basis in truth whatsoever.

Dear @koko
If we compare peaceful protests where BLM organizers MEET with police IN ADVANCE
vs.
BLM failing to coordinate with police before the crowd of their members
OBSTRUCTS police from being able to protect businesses and property from other criminals coming in

Isn't that a form of negligence?

It is similar to people boating in floodwaters while hurricane rescues are going on.
When these people do extra activities that taxes the rescue workers,
they cannot respond to both the boaters needing ADDED rescues
in addition to the other people already needing help.

So the law enforcement and authorities will ask people TO STAY HOME.
DO NOT go out in the streets and create greater liability or risks
for limited law enforcement and first responders already
preparing because of threats made to put people at risk.

If we KNOW there are threats going on (similar, ironically
to the unseen 'threat' of the viral spread that we cannot
prove which people have it or not)
shouldn't action be taken to MANAGE and PREVENT this threat?

If we don't agree with shutdowns or lockdowns,
what about with registering so that law abiding citizens
can participate safely. And anyone who refused is out of compliance.

[koko]

Here in Minnesota Governor Walz issued a mitigation order which demands that people leave their homes for emergency purposes only. That among the few reasons allowing it are for grocery shopping or for purchasing medicine. In a email that I sent him over this and related issues, I pledged that I would adhere to his ruling. As someone who voted him into office it is the least I can do.

Minnesota has a population of about 5 million people. News reports are that only a few hundred people violated his ruling. That is only a tiny percentage of the state's population. Further, it has been conclusively proven that many of the trouble makers were outsiders who were bent on destruction and chaos (see my previously provided links). There is no evidence that BLM is responsible for these violations. Note that BLM is a 501 (c)(3) non profit corporation. If there was even the slightest evidence that is violated the law as has been repeatedly asserted on this forum it would lose its tax exempt status immediately. So why hasn't the government stripped the organization of its tax exempt protection? Easy - because it has not violated the law.

[otseng]

It appears the violence is dying down, at least it appears the inner city looting has waned (probably cause there's nothing left to break into).

The problems that we have is quite complicated. But the very root of the problems is within our hearts. Politicians, police, officials, and the media will not be able to address these heart issues. And whatever they do will at best be just painting over a broken dam and at worst damaging it even more. Change starts within our hearts. We should not expect the government to solve anything.

[koko]

otseng,

heart issues ...

Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

Yes, each individual heart and attitude will have a great deal to do with correcting society. However, I do not agree that government does not have a role in this corrective process as you believe. In fact, the lecturer is a government employee and asserts that her department has a critical role in it. If anything, the government's role should be that of leadership by becoming an example to all. Our Founding Fathers had a great deal to say about this when they discussed social contract which dealt with balancing individual rights and obligations versus those of government. While those roles have evolved in recent decades, this does not mean one side has or should abandon its obligations. Government must maintain a role in the process. The lecturer and I agree that the role should be one of exemplary leadership. Thereafter all or most will naturally follow and eventually lead to a better society.