Taking a knee.

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Elijah John
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Taking a knee.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Colin Kapernick (sp?) began a movement to "take a knee" during the National Anthem to protest the police who he thinks are systemically racist. The protestors are now encouraging the police themselves to "take a knee" to protest the cruel killing of George Floyd. And some are.

A Black Lives Matter "reporter" shamed a white woman to kneeling and confessing her guilt for enjoying "white privilege". Amazingly, instead of telling the "reporter" to go fly a kite", she did.

For debate, should a believer EVER "take a knee" to anyone but God in prayer? Is bowing to Black Lives Matter or anyone else except God a form of idolatry?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

koko wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:23 am... If Jesus (King of Kings) can bow before and wash the feet of slaves, every can and is actually supposed to do so as well.


BOWING BEFORE OR BENDING?

There is no record of Jesus "bowing before"* anyone. While he may have bowed in greeting as a child, the scriptures depict an adult Jesus well aware of his position as the nation's Messiah and the son of God and is not recorded as bowing in reverence or respect before anyone (although there are plenty of example of him accepting other that bowed before him).

IMPORTANT NOTE Bowing before someone is traditionally either a greeting or a gesture in respect for a person's position it is not to be confused with simply lowering ones body to perform a task. Bowing or kneeling before someone or something remains an isolated gesture that is not linked with a subsequent action (since the point is the gesture itself) while the everyday movement if bending is invariably followed by the performance of an action or a task while in the lowered position ...


To illustrate: Mother may get on her knees in front of her child in order to tie her little ones shoe laces this wouldn't constitute "bowing before" her child. Although she is lowering her body, it is simply to perform a service, it is not done as a sign of recognition of the child's authority or high position. Someone that lowers their body to clean behind their fridge or kneels to pick up a book or make their bed is simply putting their bodies in the most expedient position to perform a task they are not lowering themselves to show they honour their fridge or want to express allegence, reverence or worshipful adoration to their bed.


DID JESUS BOW BEFORE HIS APOSTLES WHEN HE WASHED THEIR FEET?

ANSWER: No he did not, he simply lowered his body to perform a task since feet are generally on or near the ground (see examples above). Granted washing someone's feet was a menial task and one which showed great humility on his part, but Jesus was not lowering his body, possibly getting on to his knees, as a sign of respect in recognition of the Apostles position or in a gesture of submission to them. It seems sure he was not signalling his allegiance or dedication to them as his Lord and master since he explicitly expressed that he was indeed their master not the other way round.

CONCLUSION : While Jesus no doubt lowered his body or got on one or both knees in the course of his earthly life, there is no record of him doing so other than to perform a task. It is therefore inaccurate to suggest we have a record of Jesus kneeling or "bowing before" his Apostles.



[*] bowing ones head or upper nody has traditionally simply been either a greeting or a sign of respect in recognition of a person's position, kneeling a gesture of submission and postrating (throwing oneself flat on the ground so as to be lying face downwards) a sign of reverence , repentence or submission. A hand over the heart a sign of dedication and allegiance.




RELATED POSTS

PROSKYNEO: "Hommage" or "Worship"
viewtopic.php?p=867170#p867170
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #12

Post by koko »

JW,

While Jesus no doubt lowered his body or got on one or both knees in the course of his earthly life, there is no record of him doing so other than to perform a task. It is therefore inaccurate to suggest we have a record of Jesus kneeling or "bowing before" his Apostles.



Yours is a very good post and does make a good distinction between merely bowing and performing the mandated task of feet washing.

However, it is just a bit historically shortsighted in that it fails to recognize that biblical people did bow before rulers. In the Old Testament the Pharoah ordered all people (including Israelites) to bow before Joseph who had been a slave but was now an administrator. In New Testament times people bowed before Caesar (you might recall Shakespeare famous play "Julius Caesar" where several characters bowed before Julius). Jesus said "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar" - the law required such public obeisance. Culture and law were the primary dictates which determined the accepted parameters of these practices. While biblical adherents were forbidden from bowing before idols, history shows bowing before rules was done both OT and NT times.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I think if you look I did mention the historical significance of bowing. This makes me think of another point when speaking on the revisionist version of going down on one knee that I didn't mention in my initial post.
viewtopic.php?p=1015088#p1015088

I DIDN'T SAY WHAT YOU HEARD

As I pointed out earlier, we are living is a post revisionist society where tradition is often disregarded and history viewed as irrelevant. Thus a gesture, such as going down on one knee, something done historically in supplication or as a sign of submission, has been "rebranded" as a symbol of solidarity. The problem is that gestures exist for a reason.

It is estimated that 60 to 90 percent of communication is nonverbal, in other words our body language communicates a wealth of information even before we've opened our mouths. Lowering yourself onto one knee for example, makes one physically vulnerable to anyone standing, it limits one's the field of vision and puts a person in a position where it would be difficult to defend oneself or flee. To voluntarily lower one's body in such a way sends out a clear yet unspoken signal of submission, similar to a puppy rolling over and showing its belly.

Image

This is why people have reacted so strongly seeing their law enforcement officers, their President , Prime Ministers or elected goverment official kneel in this way. On a visceral level they know instictively something is not right seeing those with authority (or that represent them as government officials) make such a gesture. Saying "this isn't what it looks like" stresses the subconscious as we are being asked effectively not to accept the message our eyes are sending us.





JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #14

Post by koko »

@JW,


While you did mention Jesus's history I did not see where you addressed this: " it is just a bit historically shortsighted in that it fails to recognize that biblical people did bow before rulers." I don't see where you mentioned him or anyone else bowing before rulers as was the law, especially in OT times.

The Bible definitely voids bowing before idols but I do not see any injunction against obeying the law and bowing before rulers. Since we are to render unto Caesar what is his, this type of obeisance is biblically legal.

Elijah John
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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #15

Post by Elijah John »

koko wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:51 pm When did anyone bow to BLM? Present evidence to substantiate this claim.
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/06/03 ... ple-929304

Again, scroll down. I think it's the 2nd or 3rd video. And the first video is white liberals making ritualistic pledges at the behest of BLM.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #16

Post by koko »

Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:57 am
koko wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:51 pm When did anyone bow to BLM? Present evidence to substantiate this claim.
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/06/03 ... ple-929304

Again, scroll down. I think it's the 2nd or 3rd video. And the first video is white liberals making ritualistic pledges at the behest of BLM.


In the first video people are sitting down and making a pledge to help each other. No obseisance there.

The second video is so fake I find it remarkable that you can fall for this nonsense:


"The user who posted the video has since confirmed in an Instagram post that he is not part of BLM" -

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN23B359


Here's the kicker for me personally: "The author of the video, who refers to himself as “Smooth Sánchez” on his social media profiles, has publicly suggested this video was intended as “satire” and “comedy”. I know Smooth Sanchez from our communications on You Tube. He is a satirist, not a professional journalist nor public activist. Here is his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... th+sanchez

Hate to say it but you have fallen for a big time hoax.

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