Taking a knee.

Debate and discussion on racism and related issues

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Elijah John
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Taking a knee.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Colin Kapernick (sp?) began a movement to "take a knee" during the National Anthem to protest the police who he thinks are systemically racist. The protestors are now encouraging the police themselves to "take a knee" to protest the cruel killing of George Floyd. And some are.

A Black Lives Matter "reporter" shamed a white woman to kneeling and confessing her guilt for enjoying "white privilege". Amazingly, instead of telling the "reporter" to go fly a kite", she did.

For debate, should a believer EVER "take a knee" to anyone but God in prayer? Is bowing to Black Lives Matter or anyone else except God a form of idolatry?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #2

Post by koko »

When did anyone bow to BLM? Present evidence to substantiate this claim.

As for bowing, people have done that for CENTURIES before European royalty. There were plenty more instances of bowing in the Bible as this was the normal course of action in ancient times:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Bowing


In fact, people are commanded to bow before fellow disciples in the New Testament as this is how to properly wash their feet .

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #3

Post by koko »

For debate, should a believer EVER "take a knee" to anyone but God in prayer?

Remember Jesus's words and actions as in this famous illustration where he washes the feet of his servants:


Image


Those who wish to inherit part of the Kingdom must do the same or forfeit their inheritance.

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #4

Post by Overcomer »

I think there's a huge difference between bowing to a person and bowing to God. The first may be done out of respect either for the person or for the position that person holds. But bowing to God isn't done just out of respect, but in worship.

For example, when I studied karate, we would all bow to the sensei (teacher) when we entered and exited the dojo. We did that in acknowledgement of the teacher's position, a position that was traditionally acknowledged with a respectful bow. But we did not worship him. Therein lies the difference.

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #5

Post by WeSee »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:11 am Colin Kapernick (sp?) began a movement to "take a knee" during the National Anthem to protest the police who he thinks are systemically racist. The protestors are now encouraging the police themselves to "take a knee" to protest the cruel killing of George Floyd. And some are.

A Black Lives Matter "reporter" shamed a white woman to kneeling and confessing her guilt for enjoying "white privilege". Amazingly, instead of telling the "reporter" to go fly a kite", she did.

For debate, should a believer EVER "take a knee" to anyone but God in prayer? Is bowing to Black Lives Matter or anyone else except God a form of idolatry?
Where to begin?

For one, the video had nothing whatsoever to do with the BLM organization. Those with simplistic and/or racist views take it as matter of fact. Those who do not have simplistic or racist views are skeptical and investigate the veracity of claims like these.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN23B359

For another, racism has been and continues to be a systemic problem in the US. Not only in police forces, but in society in general reaching all the way to the White House. The backlash suffered by Kaepernick is an example in and of itself. I recently watched a Mike Florio video regarding Drew Brees' recent "disrespecting the flag" comment and subsequent apology should shed light on what taking a knee by NFL players is and is not about


Finally the taking of a knee is not TO ANYONE. What was originally a sign of protest, has also become a sign of solidarity with that protest. May the day soom come when the vast majority of US citizens take a knee in solidarity. Unfortunately a significant percentage of US citizens continue to have simplistic and/or racist views.

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #6

Post by bluegreenearth »

Any physical gesture has no intrinsic meaning. People arbitrarily assign meanings to particular physical gestures as a form of nonverbal communication. As with all languages, this form of communication only functions when everyone utilizing it understands and agrees to the meanings that have been arbitrarily assigned to each physical gesture. Because the meaning of a specified gesture is arbitrarily assigned, it can have one meaning in one context and a completely different meaning or no meaning at all in a different context. So, it is not the specific gesture itself that matters but its intended meaning (if any) in the context of which it is displayed.

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #7

Post by Bust Nak »

How is taking a knee different from stand at attention with right hand over heart? Should a believer EVER "stand with hand over heart" to anyone but God in prayer? Is bowing to the national anthem or anyone else except God a form of idolatry?

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We live in the age of rebranding with a generation of people that have been taught to disregard the historical and religiius significance of actions. I can't see why then those that argue that a celebration, act or gesture can exist completely seperate from its historical and cultural roots, should be offended when, what for millennia has been a public sign of submission* is re-branded as a trendy gesture of solidarity.

If in 2020 some object when told that a gesture suddenly doesn't mean what it always did, they do well to remember it is based on the principle that many have accepted, even silently supported by a reprimanding those that object to modern celebrations, trends and customs based on their historic significance. In short I presume policemen and politicians feel "taking the knee" not to be a sign of allegiance, submission or worship but rather a sign of solidarity with a minority, and as such in keeping with their personal ethics.

Jehovahs Witnesses are known to be very careful to refrain from any gesture we deem to compromise our standards of worship or political neutrality (even if we are told that gesture no longer means what it did in the past). We have been criticized for this, even being told we are petty and antisocial, but at least it means we stand united and firm in our refusal, while others struggle with what to do and indeed what it means to themsleves, others and/or if they are believers, God when asked to "take the knee" for a social, political or religious cause.

Evidently relativisme has its drawbacks.


JW

Image
[*] bowing ones head or upper nody is traditionally either a greeting or a gesture in respect for a person's position, kneeling a gesture of submission and postrating (throwing oneself flat on the ground so as to be lying face downwards) a sign of reverence , repentence or submission. A hand over the heart a sign of dedication and allegiance.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:13 pm, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

koko

Re: Taking a knee.

Post #9

Post by koko »

Bust Nak wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:27 am How is taking a knee different from stand at attention with right hand over heart? Should a believer EVER "stand with hand over heart" to anyone but God in prayer? Is bowing to the national anthem or anyone else except God a form of idolatry?


I believe I have answered that already by presenting the example of Jesus bowing before his own slaves. See Romans 1:1 where Apostle Paul called himself a slave of Jesus:

Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God


http://www.usccb.org/bible/romans/1



If Jesus (King of Kings) can bow before and wash the feet of slaves, every can and is actually supposed to do so as well.

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Re: Taking a knee.

Post #10

Post by PinSeeker »

I echo Paul's exhortation/advice in Romans 12-15, having been shown God's graciousness to me/us:
  • "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned... "
  • "Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor."
  • "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them."
  • "Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another."
  • "Do not be haughty... Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all."
  • "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink..."
  • "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good..."
  • "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law..."
  • "So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding... Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up..."
So, as Paul then says, "May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

Grace and peace to all.

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