Regarding the protests.

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Elijah John
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Regarding the protests.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Regarding the protests arising from the killing of George Floyd, several questions and observations for debate.

1) Are protests granted without permits nowadays? Have all these US cities given all these protesters permits to protest? And for how long?

2) Can protesters who block traffic and scream at motorists still be considered "peaceful protestors"? Where is the bar set for a "peaceful protest"? Simply no physical violence, looting or destruction of other people's property? Seems a very low bar indeed. Do "peaceful protesters" even meet this low bar?

3) Is there any such crime as "disturbing the peace" anymore? Are "peaceful protesters" keeping or disturbing the peace?

4) Are folks who chant and scream "no justice no peace" really intent on peaceful protest? Or is this incitement to violence and threatening behavior. Should people who chant this be held accountable for rioting and looting that almost always follows their "peaceful" protests and chanting?

5) Does engaging in protests and rioting confer immunity on people from contracting the Covid 19 virus? Why do so many politicians condone the protests while insisting that opening businesses, visiting relatives or attending other gatherings put everyone at risk for the virus? Is there a vaccine for hypocrisy?

6) Whatever happened to the prayerful, candlelight vigil as a form of protest? Don't prayerful, candlelight vigils really better exemplify the peaceful protest?

7) And finally, is the right to protest and unlimited right? If so, where are the protests for protection of police? For the preservation of Western Civilization and it's monuments? Cant people protest unjust killings on both sides?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #31

Post by Elijah John »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:20 pm
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm Regarding the protests arising from the killing of George Floyd, several questions and observations for debate.

1) Are protests granted without permits nowadays? Have all these US cities given all these protesters permits to protest? And for how long?
Protesters are indeed granted permits to protest; have you ever heard of the First Amendment?

The Constitution of the United States is their "permit".
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 2) Can protesters who block traffic and scream at motorists still be considered "peaceful protestors"?
Can police officers who kill unarmed black people be still considered "peace officers"?
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm Where is the bar set for a "peaceful protest"?
Where is the bar set for "peace officers"?
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm Simply no physical violence, looting or destruction of other people's property? Seems a very low bar indeed. Do "peaceful protesters" even meet this low bar?
Protesters that aren't physically violent or looting/destroying OPP....I would deem such activities as "peaceful". Don't you?
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 3) Is there any such crime as "disturbing the peace" anymore? Are "peaceful protesters" keeping or disturbing the peace?
And I will argue that the shooting/killing of unarmed black people are the worse examples of "disturbing the peace".
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 4) Are folks who chant and scream "no justice no peace" really intent on peaceful protest? Or is this incitement to violence and threatening behavior.
Are police officers who took an oath to "serve and protect" really intent on "serving and protecting" the community?
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pmShould people who chant this be held accountable for rioting and looting that almost always follows their "peaceful" protests and chanting?
Post hoc fallacy.
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 5) Does engaging in protests and rioting confer immunity on people from contracting the Covid 19 virus? Why do so many politicians condone the protests while insisting that opening businesses, visiting relatives or attending other gatherings put everyone at risk for the virus? Is there a vaccine for hypocrisy?
Ok, so as long as protesters keep their 6 ft distancing...everything will be cool?
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 6) Whatever happened to the prayerful, candlelight vigil as a form of protest? Don't prayerful, candlelight vigils really better exemplify the peaceful protest?
Martin Luther King Jr and his followers, who were all advocates of peaceful protests tried this...but that still wasn't good enough...as they were still beaten, arrested, sprayed with high powered water hoses, and were attacked by police dogs..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_ ... ry_marches

We are no longer asking for justice and equality. We are now demanding it.
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm 7) And finally, is the right to protest and unlimited right? If so, where are the protests for protection of police?
I don't know. Go down to your local police dept and ask them "where are the protests for protection of police".
The bulk of your arguments seem to be along the lines of "yes but..." Justifying bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. That is childish reasoning.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #32

Post by Elijah John »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:20 pm
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 pm
Martin Luther King Jr and his followers, who were all advocates of peaceful protests tried this...but that still wasn't good enough...as they were still beaten, arrested, sprayed with high powered water hoses, and were attacked by police dogs..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_ ... ry_marches

We are no longer asking for justice and equality. We are now demanding it.
You already have it. Full equality under the law. Black police chiefs, black mayors, black congressmen and women, fully integrated military and police forces, black ex-president and first lady, many many celebrated black entertainers and athletes and full voting rights. Pretty much all of what MLK stood for and asked for. "Systemic racism"? Really? BLM and their supporters talk as though we are stuck in the 60's. Are you asking for the police to never make mistakes? Are you asking for criminals to be ignored simply because they are black? What exactly are you "demanding"? Is is any wonder police are on edge around black suspects when black people commit more murder than any other group per capita? 13% of the population, yet responsible for 52% of the murders. Seems more like systemic violent crime in the black community (usually urban) than it does a matter of "systemic racism".

What about David Dorn? Does his black life matter less than George Floyd's? Where are David Dorn's parades, tributes and protests? Pretty much only at the RNC as far as I can see. Apparently it is not fashionable to celebrate, or mourn for law abiding people of color as it is to protest for mostly criminals who have suffered under the occasional episodes of police brutality. Yes, occasional, not systemic.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

koko

Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #33

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:12 pm
koko wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:03 am Unclear? If so, then it is clear police did not have probable cause which must exist before they can arrest anyone.
Apparently you are lacking in facts. Jacob Blake had a WARRANT out for his arrest. That's probable cause enough for arrest. Here are the facts that you have left out:
According to the record, Blake has an arrest warrant filed against him on July 7, 2020 in Kenosha, Wisconsin for an incident involving domestic abuse that happened on May 3. The offenses listed are criminal trespass to dwelling, third-degree sexual assault and disorderly conduct.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN25N2ZO

Are you really familiar with this case? If so, why do you keep leaving out KEY details? Don't just listen to HYPe or rumor, use your computer and do some real research from credible sources.





here's the photo, show me their arrest warrants:


Image

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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #34

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:07 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:12 pm
koko wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:03 am Unclear? If so, then it is clear police did not have probable cause which must exist before they can arrest anyone.
Apparently you are lacking in facts. Jacob Blake had a WARRANT out for his arrest. That's probable cause enough for arrest. Here are the facts that you have left out:
According to the record, Blake has an arrest warrant filed against him on July 7, 2020 in Kenosha, Wisconsin for an incident involving domestic abuse that happened on May 3. The offenses listed are criminal trespass to dwelling, third-degree sexual assault and disorderly conduct.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN25N2ZO

Are you really familiar with this case? If so, why do you keep leaving out KEY details? Don't just listen to HYPe or rumor, use your computer and do some real research from credible sources.
here's the photo, show me their arrest warrants:
You assume that they didn't show any arrest warrants. But another assumption comes before that which is that they have to show it to begin with.
A suspect does not have a right to see the warrant, and the police may believe that it is prudent not to show the warrant for various reasons. If this happens, the suspect will need to comply with the police during the course of the arrest and then resolve any issue of mistaken identity later in the process.
Source: https://www.justia.com/criminal/procedu ... -warrants/

koko

Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #35

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:18 pm
You assume that they didn't show any arrest warrants. But another assumption comes before that which is that they have to show it to begin with.
A suspect does not have a right to see the warrant, and the police may believe that it is prudent not to show the warrant for various reasons. If this happens, the suspect will need to comply with the police during the course of the arrest and then resolve any issue of mistaken identity later in the process.
Source: https://www.justia.com/criminal/procedu ... -warrants/




Actually, it's this:


"Upon arrest, an officer possessing the original or a duplicate original warrant must show it to the defendant. If the officer does not possess the warrant, the officer must inform the defendant of the warrant's existence and of the offense charged and, at the defendant's request, must show the original or a duplicate original warrant to the defendant as soon as possible.''


https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_4


But we don't know the facts as folks there say he was only trying to stop a fight. So we shall have to wait for all the facts to be ascertained.

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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #36

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:53 pm The bulk of your arguments seem to be along the lines of "yes but..." Justifying bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. That is childish reasoning.
Childish reasoning? Ahh, see; the difference between your reasoning and my reasoning is simple..

When you see the oppressed lashing out against their oppressors; you see this as "bad behavior".

When I see the oppressed lashing out against their oppressors; I see this as "justified behavior".

Kind of reminds me of having Bible studies with Jehovah's Witnesses. We are reading the same verses, but we are having two different interpretations.

Just a fundamental disagreement we have here, sir.
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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #37

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:39 pmActually, it's this:
"Upon arrest, an officer possessing the original or a duplicate original warrant must show it to the defendant. If the officer does not possess the warrant, the officer must inform the defendant of the warrant's existence and of the offense charged and, at the defendant's request, must show the original or a duplicate original warrant to the defendant as soon as possible.''


https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_4
Our sources disagree. One type of evidence that might settle this issue is to show that your source applies in all states, especially in Kenosha, Wisconsin. But there is also language in your source that indicates that the officer does not have to have the warrant on hand since it goes into that scenario:
"If the officer does not possess the warrant, the officer must inform the defendant of the warrant's existence and of the offense charged"

That's from your source. Also, keep in mind that it doesn't mention anything about the suspect being allowed to resist arrest just because no warrant is shown.

koko wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:39 pmBut we don't know the facts as folks there say he was only trying to stop a fight. So we shall have to wait for all the facts to be ascertained.
We are in total agreement here.

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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #38

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm You already have it. Full equality under the law. Black police chiefs, black mayors, black congressmen and women, fully integrated military and police forces, black ex-president and first lady, many many celebrated black entertainers and athletes and full voting rights.
So, what do I mean by equality? Well..

1. Statistically, if a white person walks into a bank for a loan, he/she will be more likely than not, able to get a lower interest rate than a black person with the same credit score.

2. White people with felony convictions are more likely to get a job "call back" than a black person without a felony conviction.

3. Or even the more simple stuff, like a black person being called "articulate" for being able to clearly/concisely express his thoughts to the apparent bewilderment of white people, "wow, I didn't know black people could speak like that".

In the third case, I am reminded a Chris Rock set (1996) at which he commented on Colin Powell and how white people always gives him the "He speaks so well", compliment

( "he speaks so well" is not a compliment, "speaks so well is something you say about retarded people who can talk" -Chris Rock).

Or more recently, during President Barack Obama's early original campaign run as he was gaining steam, President Bush was asked what he thought of Barack Obama, and his response was, "Well, he is articulate".

Do you want the list to go on and on and on about the inequality of people of color compared to their white counterparts?
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm Pretty much all of what MLK stood for and asked for.
The fact that he had to "ask" in the first place lol. And we are still not quite their yet.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm "Systemic racism"? Really? BLM and their supporters talk as though we are stuck in the 60's.
White supremacy existed in the 60's, and it still exists in 2020.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm Are you asking for the police to never make mistakes?
No, but I guess it is too much to ask of police officers to not shoot or kill civilians who are unarmed and pose no immediate threat/danger.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm Are you asking for criminals to be ignored simply because they are black? What exactly are you "demanding
No. But use reasonable force in your attempt at apprehension. 7 shots to the back of an unarmed man is not reasonable force in a apprehension attempt. A knee to the neck of a compliant man for 8 minutes is not reasonable force in a apprehension attempt.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm Is is any wonder police are on edge around black suspects when black people commit more murder than any other group per capita? 13% of the population, yet responsible for 52% of the murders. Seems more like systemic violent crime in the black community (usually urban) than it does a matter of "systemic racism".
I am quite sure that most of those murders involve gang/drug violence...and underdeveloped urban communities are usually more effected by such activities.

I don't condone any of that stuff....but I do condone bad people killing other bad people. Let them kill each other....better them than one of my loved ones (or any innocent people) getting caught up in any crossfires or any other kind of collateral damages.

Black-on-black crime is a concern that should not be overlooked....and neither should white supremacy.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm What about David Dorn? Does his black life matter less than George Floyd's? Where are David Dorn's parades, tributes and protests?
Again, you are comparing anomalies to systematic patterns of behaviors that has plagued this nation for 3 centuries.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm Pretty much only at the RNC as far as I can see. Apparently it is not fashionable to celebrate, or mourn for law abiding people of color as it is to protest for mostly criminals
Well, if you deem those that suffer under police brutality as criminals...then I classify that police brutalizers as racists.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:20 pm who have suffered under the occasional episodes of police brutality. Yes, occasional, not systemic.
I would hardly classify 300 years of lynchings, murders, beatings, and dehumanizing as occasional.
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koko

Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #39

Post by koko »

Elijah John wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:20 pm
What about David Dorn?

https://nationaldaycalendar.com/nationa ... january-9/


https://nleomf.org/programs-events/national-police-week


He and his colleagues are honored every year in the USA.

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Re: Regarding the protests.

Post #40

Post by Nataly11 »

U wanna say that will never stops?

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