Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

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otseng
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Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

Rueters wrote:
The world's largest Confederate Monument faces renewed calls for removal

Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial, a nine-story-high bas-relief sculpture carved into a sprawling rock face northeast of Atlanta, is perhaps the South's most audacious monument to its pro-slavery legacy still intact.

Despite long-standing demands for the removal of what many consider a shrine to racism, the giant depiction of three Confederate heroes on horseback still towers ominously over the Georgia countryside, protected by state law.
Is the carving a shrine to racism?
Should the carving be removed?

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #11

Post by Quantrill »

koko wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:13 pm
The Confederate flag is going to fly.
The treasonous hate it represents is constitutionally protected so this is why we the patriotic majority tolerate it like we do with the swastika. Both represent hate, treason, death of innocent Americans, racial division, subversion, and chaos. At the same time they only represent a tiny minority of disaffected people who refuse to accept the USA's foundational principles re equality and the view held by others such as Winthrop that it is a commonwealth. I genuinely pity them and hope that some day they may read the Bible and adopt its teachings re being at peace with all men. The Founders would certainly approve and it would make for a better society if they did.
I have shown before that the Confederate flag does not represent treason. You simply ignore history as you want it to represent 'treason' and 'slavery' so you can cast your hate toward the Southern white people for an acceptable reason other than your own racism.

If the South were guilty of treason, Jeff Davis would have been hung. That was the North's intent. They wanted to try 'treason' before the world and show what happens to traitors. Instead, they just let him go. Why? Cause they knew they would lose the case and the North would be seen as guilty of treason.

But, just ignore it. Keep running in circles hollaring treason and slavery, treason and slavery. It makes hay and everyone nods in approval.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

Quantrill wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:00 amI have shown before that the Confederate flag does not represent treason.
In the United States, treason is defined as "levying war against them." The Confederate States did that.

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #13

Post by koko »

Quantrill wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:00 am

I have shown before that the Confederate flag does not represent treason. You simply ignore history as you want it to represent 'treason' and 'slavery' so you can cast your hate toward the Southern white people for an acceptable reason other than your own racism.

If the South were guilty of treason, Jeff Davis would have been hung. That was the North's intent. They wanted to try 'treason' before the world and show what happens to traitors. Instead, they just let him go. Why? Cause they knew they would lose the case and the North would be seen as guilty of treason.

But, just ignore it. Keep running in circles hollaring treason and slavery, treason and slavery. It makes hay and everyone nods in approval.

Quantrill


To say that the killing of over 600,000 Americans, destroying states, disrupting social harmony, etc doesn't constitute treason is beyond laughable. The Dixie flag represents all that and more. Small wonder why those on the radical and unAmerican far right applaud it so much. By contrast, we patriots waive only Old Glory - this is what real Americans love.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #14

Post by otseng »

koko wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:08 pm While I respect the views expressed, I cannot agree since Davis, Lee, and Jackson were all traitors who betrayed the USA in favor of secessionsists.
With this view, every single Confederate soldier (even the vast majority of Southerners) was a "traitor". I'm not going to argue if their actions were right or wrong, but I am against erasing history, even if we don't like it. We should not venerate any of the Confederate leaders, but neither should we forget the past. History serves as a lesson and reminder to us of what we've been through.

The path forward to address racism and hatred should not be divisiveness and standing up for one's own turf and tearing down another's, but the hard path of reconciliation. The Union took this step this after the war by not prosecuting the Confederates, but by extending leniency.
Yet as passionate as many Northerners were in prosecuting traitors, their passion failed to overcome leniency. Thus while many cases of alleged disloyalty among civilians resulted in punishment, none ended with execution. Confederate soldiers of all ranks were generally paroled and faced no formal charges of treason.
https://www.futurity.org/civil-war-unio ... on-725752/

Where would we be as a country if the Northerners did prosecute and execute the Southern traitors? I would imagine the flames of the Civil war would still be burning.

Though it took one hundred years, Davis was eventually restored as a full US citizen.
“In posthumously restoring the full rights of citizenship to Jefferson Davis, the Congress officially completes the long process of reconciliation that has reunited our people following the tragic conflict between the States,” the resolution read on October 17, 1978.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the ... -amendment

Leniency, forgiveness, restoration - these are the steps that we should be seeking if we are ever going to resolve the racial divide in our country. Seeking to erase history would at best be a waste of time and money. More likely, it will result in causing a larger rift in society.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #15

Post by Difflugia »

otseng wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:20 amWith this view, every single Confederate soldier (even the vast majority of Southerners) was a "traitor".
If they were subject to the laws of the United States and participated in a war against the United States, then they were traitors. I understand and agree with the sentiment you're expressing, as did President Lincoln when he pardoned the Confederate rank-and-file, but a citizen of the United States joining a military at war with the United States was then and is now committing treason. One may then go on to argue that under some circumstances, fighting for the CSA might have involved mitigating factors or even have been the right thing to do, but it was still treason.

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #16

Post by koko »

otseng wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:20 am

With this view, every single Confederate soldier (even the vast majority of Southerners) was a "traitor". I'm not going to argue if their actions were right or wrong, but I am against erasing history, even if we don't like it. We should not venerate any of the Confederate leaders, but neither should we forget the past. History serves as a lesson and reminder to us of what we've been through.

The path forward to address racism and hatred should not be divisiveness and standing up for one's own turf and tearing down another's, but the hard path of reconciliation. The Union took this step this after the war by not prosecuting the Confederates, but by extending leniency.
Yet as passionate as many Northerners were in prosecuting traitors, their passion failed to overcome leniency. Thus while many cases of alleged disloyalty among civilians resulted in punishment, none ended with execution. Confederate soldiers of all ranks were generally paroled and faced no formal charges of treason.
https://www.futurity.org/civil-war-unio ... on-725752/

Where would we be as a country if the Northerners did prosecute and execute the Southern traitors? I would imagine the flames of the Civil war would still be burning.

Though it took one hundred years, Davis was eventually restored as a full US citizen.
“In posthumously restoring the full rights of citizenship to Jefferson Davis, the Congress officially completes the long process of reconciliation that has reunited our people following the tragic conflict between the States,” the resolution read on October 17, 1978.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the ... -amendment

Leniency, forgiveness, restoration - these are the steps that we should be seeking if we are ever going to resolve the racial divide in our country. Seeking to erase history would at best be a waste of time and money. More likely, it will result in causing a larger rift in society.



Each definitely was a traitor. In declaring this, we are not erasing history but acknowledging the TRUTH.

Leniency? Yes, I do recognize that Lincoln as CIC did have legal right and prerogative to grant leniency to those traitors. While I respect that right to do so, I do not acknowledge his move as the proper thing to do. Like Nazis in post war Germany, I would impose sanctions for their crimes, treason, rebellion, and depredations (including the murder to innocent Americans) against the USA. Should Nazis have been granted leniency? Should we allow public honors for them and for standing up for their "principles"? Would it be appropriate for someone to put up a statue of Hitler in a public square, say, a block or two from a synogogue? Should swastikas be allowed on people's auto licenses or on flags in people's lawns? I don't think many people who think rationally would approve of such lunacies.

Restoration??? The southern traitors destroyed American property - they should restore all they stole and destroyed, not the other way around. Excusing their crimes will never solve the racial divide. On the contrary, such a move aggravates the problem.

We made the Nazis pay a price for their crimes. We did the same to al-Qaeda and to ISIS. Combined, all three terrorist groups killed about half the amount of people killed by the southern traitors. To forgive one group while killing off all other enemies is, to me, an absurdity beyond all manner of comprehension. In war, you deal with your enemies with consistency. That's how we finally get an end to conflict.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #17

Post by Quantrill »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:01 am
Quantrill wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:00 amI have shown before that the Confederate flag does not represent treason.
In the United States, treason is defined as "levying war against them." The Confederate States did that.
Why do you ignore what I said about Jeff Davs.?

Once the South seceded, they were not part of the U.S. They could be considered the 'enemy'...but not traitor.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #18

Post by Quantrill »

koko wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:19 am
Quantrill wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:00 am

I have shown before that the Confederate flag does not represent treason. You simply ignore history as you want it to represent 'treason' and 'slavery' so you can cast your hate toward the Southern white people for an acceptable reason other than your own racism.

If the South were guilty of treason, Jeff Davis would have been hung. That was the North's intent. They wanted to try 'treason' before the world and show what happens to traitors. Instead, they just let him go. Why? Cause they knew they would lose the case and the North would be seen as guilty of treason.

But, just ignore it. Keep running in circles hollaring treason and slavery, treason and slavery. It makes hay and everyone nods in approval.

Quantrill


To say that the killing of over 600,000 Americans, destroying states, disrupting social harmony, etc doesn't constitute treason is beyond laughable. The Dixie flag represents all that and more. Small wonder why those on the radical and unAmerican far right applaud it so much. By contrast, we patriots waive only Old Glory - this is what real Americans love.
Why do you ignore what I said about Jeff Davis? I will tell you. Because you ignore history. Much easier to run around in a circle hollaring 'treason and slavery' as that makes hay with all the other idiots who don't want to know history.

Wave ole glory all you want. But understand you do it in willful ignorance.

Quantrill

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #19

Post by koko »

Quantrill wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:24 pm

Why do you ignore what I said about Jeff Davis? I will tell you. Because you ignore history. Much easier to run around in a circle hollaring 'treason and slavery' as that makes hay with all the other idiots who don't want to know history.

Wave ole glory all you want. But understand you do it in willful ignorance.

Quantrill

Hate to say it but that's a stupid thing to say since I was a member of a historical society for many years and was one of its principle reseachers. Doesn't matter whether you like what I say or not but the fact remains that my knowledge of American history is vastly superior to yours. As a child I read much about the Civil War including information about traitors Davis and Lee. For some reason which I cannot recall after all these decades, I was fascinated by those rebellious subversives. Read even more stuff in my adulthood. The usual sanction for betraying your country is the firing squad. They were lucky they got a slight tap on the wrist by the government after the war. No surprise that right wing America haters support them as much as they do. Naturally, it follows that we patriots know better.

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Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #20

Post by Quantrill »

koko wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:43 pm
Hate to say it but that's a stupid thing to say since I was a member of a historical society for many years and was one of its principle reseachers. Doesn't matter whether you like what I say or not but the fact remains that my knowledge of American history is vastly superior to yours. As a child I read much about the Civil War including information about traitors Davis and Lee. For some reason which I cannot recall after all these decades, I was fascinated by those rebellious subversives. Read even more stuff in my adulthood. The usual sanction for betraying your country is the firing squad. They were lucky they got a slight tap on the wrist by the government after the war. No surprise that right wing America haters support them as much as they do. Naturally, it follows that we patriots know better.
Nice speech. But empty.

So...Mr. historian...take me through the reason they didn't hang Jeff Davis and instead set him free.

As a 'principle researcher' you should have the desire and the tools to such information. What happened?

Quantrill

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