All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

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All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

"All Lives Matter" includes black lives, what's wrong with that?

"Blue Lives Matter", includes black cops, what's wrong with that?

How is either slogan "racist" as some charge? Both sound pretty inclusive (not divisive) to me, how about you?
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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #2

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:07 pm "All Lives Matter" includes black lives, what's wrong with that?

"Blue Lives Matter", includes black cops, what's wrong with that?

How is either slogan "racist" as some charge? Both sound pretty inclusive (not divisive) to me, how about you?
Appropriating, co-opting or parodying others' symbols and slogans is often going to be considered disrespectful. That's a bit of a no-brainer, isn't it? Blue lives matter in particular seems clearly intended by that contrast to trivialize or dismiss the brutality by police against black people which prompted the movement in the first place. Pretending that it is somehow a non-divisive parody of the slogan seems a little disingenuous - it would have been unobjectionable if anyone had uttered it prior to 2013, but as a response to 'black lives matter' the disrespect is pretty much indisputable.

The interesting questions to my mind are
- Should that disrespect necessarily be considered racist? and
- Is the original slogan or the protective attitude towards it a form of racism itself?

In the second case, how many BLM supporters would object to "queer lives matter" or "trans lives matter," for example? Slogans which build off/appropriate from black lives matter, but do so in support of even more obviously marginalized/victimized groups. Objections against appropriating a slogan of a disadvantaged minority group in the service of a socially-dominant institution such as the police is one thing: But I think that if someone criticized a use like "trans lives matter," the implication would be that they think only black lives matter (or only black lives deserve a slogan saying that they matter).

In the first case, the simple fact is that many people who support the BLM movement are not black and many black people do not support BLM. Arguably the claim or presumption that it is "racist" to disrespect the BLM movement could itself be considered disrespectful towards black people by equating them as people with an ideology and ignoring their diversity of opinions. Pretty sure that what people are saying when they say that "all lives matter" is often/usually something along the lines of "You are wrong in suggesting that black lives get valued less by society." It is obviously critical of the BLM movement, but there doesn't seem to be anything necessarily racist about it...

...although no doubt many racist people are pretty keen to say that all lives matter!

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Mithrae wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:15 pm
Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:07 pm "All Lives Matter" includes black lives, what's wrong with that?

"Blue Lives Matter", includes black cops, what's wrong with that?

How is either slogan "racist" as some charge? Both sound pretty inclusive (not divisive) to me, how about you?
Appropriating, co-opting or parodying others' symbols and slogans is often going to be considered disrespectful. That's a bit of a no-brainer, isn't it? Blue lives matter in particular seems clearly intended by that contrast to trivialize or dismiss the brutality by police against black people which prompted the movement in the first place. Pretending that it is somehow a non-divisive parody of the slogan seems a little disingenuous - it would have been unobjectionable if anyone had uttered it prior to 2013, but as a response to 'black lives matter' the disrespect is pretty much indisputable.
I dispute it. The response is understandable in light of the systematic violence and disprespect against police including last summer (before George Floyd) when they doused police with dirty water and the police had buckets thrown at them. Also, more serious violence, such as bricks and frozen water bottles thrown at police at protests, and the murders of police including black officers such as David Patrick Underwood and David Dorn. How about the assault on police at the Brooklyn Bridge the other day, for example, and "catch and release" policies by the likes of Bill DeBlasio? And the murders of little kids in Chicago and at the Wendy's site in Atlanta. Do their black lives matter?
The interesting questions to my mind are
- Should that disrespect necessarily be considered racist? and
Should the murder of George Floyd automatically be considered "racist"? Why so? Whites are murdered by some bad cops too.
- Is the original slogan or the protective attitude towards it a form of racism itself?


Maybe so, because it's exclusionary. Let's flip it. "white lives matter". Racist, isn't it. How, I would ask, do two wrongs make a right? How is justice advanced to substitute one form of supremacy for another?
In the second case, how many BLM supporters would object to "queer lives matter" or "trans lives matter," for example?
I think many would object. Many black people adhere to traditional morality and values.
Slogans which build off/appropriate from black lives matter, but do so in support of even more obviously marginalized/victimized groups. Objections against appropriating a slogan of a disadvantaged minority group in the service of a socially-dominant institution such as the police is one thing: But I think that if someone criticized a use like "trans lives matter," the implication would be that they think only black lives matter (or only black lives deserve a slogan saying that they matter).

In the first case, the simple fact is that many people who support the BLM movement are not black and many black people do not support BLM. Arguably the claim or presumption that it is "racist" to disrespect the BLM movement could itself be considered disrespectful towards black people by equating them as people with an ideology and ignoring their diversity of opinions.
Good points, and I would point to many black pundits on Fox news who object to the Black Lives Matter organizaiton, as in "they don't speak for me". That would include Leo Tyrell, David Webb, Candace Owens and many others.
Pretty sure that what people are saying when they say that "all lives matter" is often/usually something along the lines of "You are wrong in suggesting that black lives get valued less by society." It is obviously critical of the BLM movement, but there doesn't seem to be anything necessarily racist about it...

...although no doubt many racist people are pretty keen to say that all lives matter!
Good points, but many probable racists also adhere to the slogan "black lives matter". Racism works both ways. Also, it seems many people of good will support the movement because it sounds fair, it sounds like a "civil-rights-kind-of-thing" to say. I doubt that many understand the full agenda of BLM, such as the dismantling of the nuclear family, emptying of jails, and reparations. How many suburbanites would support BLM if they realized that the implementation of reparations would result in their taxes skyrocketing? Or if their neighborhood crime rates rose because of released prisoners? How many people who have BLM signs on their lawns are familiar with BLM leader Hawk Newsome's recent statement that we will "burn the system down if we don't get what we want".

How "systematic" is actual racism when we recently elected, and re-elected a black president? How "systematic" is actual discrimination when many (if not most) police in urban areas are black or brown themselves?

You know what I hear from BLM? I hear "when someone puts on a badge, they are no longer black, they are blue". How racist is that?

Yes, there are bad cops, and they are being dealt with, and should be. But when I see white punks screaming at and abusing black cops it makes me highly doubt that all this fuss is about "racial justice". To me, when the screamers scream, I hear "anarchy"! And when the looters loot, I don't see people stealing to feed their families, as AOC suggests, what I see is lawlessness and criminality.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #4

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:07 pm
Mithrae wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:15 pm Appropriating, co-opting or parodying others' symbols and slogans is often going to be considered disrespectful. That's a bit of a no-brainer, isn't it? Blue lives matter in particular seems clearly intended by that contrast to trivialize or dismiss the brutality by police against black people which prompted the movement in the first place. Pretending that it is somehow a non-divisive parody of the slogan seems a little disingenuous - it would have been unobjectionable if anyone had uttered it prior to 2013, but as a response to 'black lives matter' the disrespect is pretty much indisputable.
I dispute it. The response is understandable in light of the systematic violence and disprespect against police including last summer (before George Floyd) when they doused police with dirty water and the police had buckets thrown at them. Also, more serious violence, such as bricks and frozen water bottles thrown at police at protests, and the murders of police including black officers such as David Patrick Underwood and David Dorn. How about the assault on police at the Brooklyn Bridge the other day, for example, and "catch and release" policies by the likes of Bill DeBlasio? And the murders of little kids in Chicago and at the Wendy's site in Atlanta. Do their black lives matter?
The interesting questions to my mind are
- Should that disrespect necessarily be considered racist? and
Should the murder of George Floyd automatically be considered "racist"? Why so? Whites are murdered by some bad cops too.
You seem to be applying a blatant double standard here: Assuming that the killings of folk like Eric Garner (killed by police with an illegal choke-hold, no criminal conviction or even indictments), John Crawford III (shot and killed by police in Walmart while carrying a BB gun sold by the store, no criminal indictments), Tamir Rice (twelve year old killed by police while carrying a toy gun, no criminal indictments), Freddie Grey (killed by police from back injuries being tossed around in the back of a transport van in violation of regulations that suspects should be secured, no criminal convictions), Philando Castille (shot and killed by police in front of his girlfriend and her four year old daughter during a traffic stop, no criminal convictions), Breonna Taylor (shot and killed by police during a no-knock, unannounced search of her home based on fruitless suspicions regarding drug sales over ten miles away by someone she knew), George Floyd and so on are all just isolated incidents by "some bad cops," while simultaneously declaring that any violence against police officers is "systematic." As I suggested, it is pretty much indisputable that disrespect towards the BLM movement is conveyed by parodying it with 'blue lives matter.' Claims that BLM incites or catalyzes "systematic violence" against police and that therefore the disrespect is justified don't change that the fact that it is indeed a disrespectful parody.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:07 pm
- Is the original slogan or the protective attitude towards it a form of racism itself?

Maybe so, because it's exclusionary. Let's flip it. "white lives matter". Racist, isn't it. How, I would ask, do two wrongs make a right? How is justice advanced to substitute one form of supremacy for another?
Why did you immediately reach for 'white lives'? I already pointed out that there is no symmetry between a slogan for a disadvantaged minority and its appropriation for a socially dominant group such as the police or in this case white people. Do you not understand that fact? Do you simply not care?

Saying that 'hispanic lives matter' or 'asian lives matter' or 'white lives matter' are not racist claims; they are all true, and they can only be considered "exclusionary" if one interjects the prejudice that they mean only those lives matter. As Bust Nak keeps pointing out, do you or anyone else ever object to "save the whales" being exclusionary?
Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:07 pm
In the second case, how many BLM supporters would object to "queer lives matter" or "trans lives matter," for example?
I think many would object. Many black people adhere to traditional morality and values.
That's an interesting response. Judging by your imprecise claim that BLM seeks to dismantle the nuclear family, it seems that you've obviously read about BLM that they seek to "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." But did you miss from that same page their emphasis that
  • We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.
    We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence. . . .

    We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).
Those traditional values you're talking about are overwhelmingly traditional Christian values. Do you think it's reasonable to say that many Christians would object to people saying that trans lives matter? Disagreeing or being uncomfortable with that issue does not equate with rejecting advocacy for the value of their lives! Yet that seems to be the presumption you adopt regarding black people, despite the BLM organization going out of its way to express a supportive position. Have you actually seen any black person or BLM supporter objecting to 'trans lives matter' or 'queer lives matter,' or is that more along the lines of a stereotypical assumption on your part?
Last edited by Mithrae on Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #5

Post by otseng »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:07 pm "All Lives Matter" includes black lives, what's wrong with that?
It is true All Lives Matter. But, in the context of Black Lives Matter, it can be perceived to be dismissive and unsympathetic. I think the best response people can do to address the issue of racism is to listen and not respond back with counter slogans. If the response to a black person is "Hey, all lives matter!", then it is not listening and not seeking to understand. The illustration my pastor used was if his wife asked him, "Do you love me?" If his response is "I love everyone", though his answer is not wrong, it would be an inappropriate answer at that time.

Listening to another person is hard. It is easier to believe our own stereotypes of another and not seek to truly understand another's perspective. When listening to another person, we don't need to agree with everything they believe. We don't even need to necessarily support what they believe. But, if we simply seek to listen, without judging them and dismissing them, I think it can go far. We don't need to respond back with how another should think or what they should do. If we simply show that we've heard them and can sympathize, it can start the process of racial reconciliation.

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #6

Post by Zzyzx »

.
NO lives seem to matter much when people refuse to wear masks during a pandemic – not even their own (and certainly not others') – with 130,000 dead and counting.
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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #7

Post by Zzyzx »

otseng wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:07 am The illustration my pastor used was if his wife asked him, "Do you love me?" If his response is "I love everyone", though his answer is not wrong, it would be an inappropriate answer at that time.
Wise words from your pastor.

Additionally, skin color and physical features are not a matter of choice. Occupations ARE a matter of choice. Some of us choose dangerous occupations. I chose #8 in early years (family tradition) and did 1, 2, 4, and 20 briefly over the years. After discharge from the Army I considered #16 but went in other directions. In each case, I was aware that my job was dangerous -- and see no reason to single out #16 for special attention.

The top 25

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #8

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to Mithrae in post #4]

So we're to be lectured about disrespect by people who murder and beat police, douse them with water and urine, burn their patrol cars, hurl dangerous projectiles at them, mock them to their face, etc, etc, etc,? (I'm assuming it's not just you who considers the slogan "Blue Lives Matter" to be disrespectful, you and others may, but I do not.) How bout "back the blue". Is that racist and disrespectful now too? Is that a mockery?

"Blue Lives Matter" is not a slogan designed to mock but rather it's a response to the very real violence done at the hands of BLM and their supporters against the police, which includes murder, and attempted murder.

And sorry, you don't get to tell me I don't care about black victims of real police abuse just because I'm critical of BLM. I do care. But the legal system is taking care of it. Riots don't hasten the process.

And no, racism is not systematic within police departments. Yes, these are isolated incidents. The atrocious nature of those incidents does not make them systemic.

And I don't think you addressed the statement of NY BLM leader Hawk Newsome who said "we'll burn the system down if we don't get what we want, and I'll leave it to you to decide if I'm speaking literally, or figuratively". How is that not incitement to violence? How is that not a revealing statement as to the real agenda and tactics of BLM?

And just what do you think it is that BLM wants?

They seem to have many people duped into believing they're a civil rights organization. They are not. They are radicals who are content to "burn the system down", and get people they disagree with "cancelled". And they are not content with only destroying Confederate statues, now they are going after, (and have gone after) statues of Washington, Jefferson, and even Grant and Robert Gould Shaw!

Do you support that? Where do you think this will end if BLM continues unchecked? Do you ever hear them condemning the violence done in their name? I don't.

But I do hear the police constantly condemning the excessive and unlawful use of force by bad cops against the victims you mention and those in the headlines.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #9

Post by Kenisaw »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:07 pm "All Lives Matter" includes black lives, what's wrong with that?

"Blue Lives Matter", includes black cops, what's wrong with that?

How is either slogan "racist" as some charge? Both sound pretty inclusive (not divisive) to me, how about you?
The problem that is occurring between the right and the left is one of understanding what "Black Lives Matter" means. To the left, it means that the lives of black people matter. I have no problem with that. However, the lives they are specifically referring to is that of unarmed black people shot and killed by police. All 9 of them, out of 375 million police interactions with Americans in 2019 for example. But, given the history of slavery in America, some people in the black community are sensitive to anything that affects black lives via authority figures. To the right, the saying makes zero sense when 101 black people in Chicago are shot by other black people, 7 of which died, in JUST the weekend of July 17th, 2020. If black lives matter (and they do obviously), then there is a far bigger elephant in the room that is being completely ignored when it comes to the lives of black people.

It doesn't help the situation that "Black Lives Matter" is a saying and an organization that are not necessarily connected, with the organization being run by admitted (and I quote) "trained marxists". The organization taints the saying, which is in part why I believe "All Lives Matter" came into existence.

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Re: All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter..inclusive

Post #10

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:22 pm [Replying to Mithrae in post #4]

So we're to be lectured about disrespect by people who murder and beat police, douse them with water and urine, burn their patrol cars, hurl dangerous projectiles at them, mock them to their face, etc, etc, etc,? (I'm assuming it's not just you who considers the slogan "Blue Lives Matter" to be disrespectful, you and others may, but I do not.)
I don't mock police to their face, or behind their backs for that matter. I don't burn patrol cars or hurl dangerous projectiles. I don't murder and beat police... or anyone else. You asked a question of members on this forum; if you're just going to stoop to insults and guilt-by-association thinking when you don't like the answer, it might have been better not to pretend that you were interested in the discussion to begin with.
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:22 pm How bout "back the blue". Is that racist and disrespectful now too? Is that a mockery?

"Blue Lives Matter" is not a slogan designed to mock but rather it's a response to the very real violence done at the hands of BLM and their supporters against the police, which includes murder, and attempted murder.
"Back the blue"? Yes, it looks like it's exceptionally easy to come up with a supportive slogan for police that is not parodying a slogan used for victims of police brutality, doesn't it. So then, why would anyone choose to parody the slogan used for victims of police brutality?
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:22 pm And I don't think you addressed the statement of NY BLM leader Hawk Newsome who said "we'll burn the system down if we don't get what we want, and I'll leave it to you to decide if I'm speaking literally, or figuratively". How is that not incitement to violence? How is that not a revealing statement as to the real agenda and tactics of BLM?
I've never heard of the guy, but it took me all of twenty seconds to find that "Hawk Newsome has no relation to the Black Lives Matter Global Network (“BLM”) founded by Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi — and is not the “president” of BLM or any of its chapters." The fact that you want to portray his comments as representative (systemic, as it were) for the"real agenda" of the BLM movement in general is - yet again - a pretty clear indication of the kind of double standards which seem so common around this issue.
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:22 pm They seem to have many people duped into believing they're a civil rights organization. They are not. They are radicals who are content to "burn the system down", and get people they disagree with "cancelled". And they are not content with only destroying Confederate statues, now they are going after, (and have gone after) statues of Washington, Jefferson, and even Grant and Robert Gould Shaw!

Do you support that? Where do you think this will end if BLM continues unchecked?
You asked if "blue lives matter" is racist. I don't think it is, but it is obviously disrespectful to take a slogan raised for victims of police abuse and appropriate it for the police themselves... and many of the comments and actions by supporters of 'blue lives matter' seem to further reinforce that impression of disrespect. All of your (sometimes rather dubious) comments trashing BLM simply prove my point. Whether or not I support BLM from over here in Australia or what one might speculate about hypothetical futures have no bearing on that answer to your OP question.

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