Who pays for the arson and the looting?

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Elijah John
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Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

1) Who pays for the arson and the looting that seems to accompany even the "peaceful" protests?

2) Should states and cities which allow the "blowing off steam" be bailed out by the federal government? Should cities which tell police to "stand down" in the face of such destruction be bailed out by the US taxpayer?

3) What business is going to want to re-invest in cities which don't protect them or their employees?

4) Is this arson and looting what "peaceful" protesters mean when they chant "no justice no peace"?

5) Isn't there a better way to achieve racial justice in this country? Are we really that far away from that ideal?

6) Are arsonists and thieves using the cause of "racial justice" as a pretext for their criminal behavior? And in the process are they obscuring the very real grievances which peaceful protests and reformers are attempting to correct?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Zzyzx
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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #2

Post by Zzyzx »

Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 1) Who pays for the arson and the looting that seems to accompany even the "peaceful" protests?
Insurance companies pay for a good deal of the damage.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 2) Should states and cities which allow the "blowing off steam" be bailed out by the federal government? Should cities which tell police to "stand down" in the face of such destruction be bailed out by the US taxpayer?
Cities should not be bailed out by the federal government or US taxpayers. That money is needed to bail out banks and corporations that make unwise business decisions (and to build a wall).
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 3) What business is going to want to re-invest in cities which don't protect them or their employees?
That is a business decision.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 4) Is this arson and looting what "peaceful" protesters mean when they chant "no justice no peace"?
Sloganeering has some appeal in politics.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 5) Isn't there a better way to achieve racial justice in this country?
Racial justice and equality have not been achieved. What do you suggest be done?
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am Are we really that far away from that ideal?
Ask the people who are directly affected by racial injustice – not those who are in privileged positions.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 6) Are arsonists and thieves using the cause of "racial justice" as a pretext for their criminal behavior?
Those of evil intent often take advantage of circumstances – for example looting during floods. We don't tend to blame the flood for the looting.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am And in the process are they obscuring the very real grievances which peaceful protests and reformers are attempting to correct?
Of course. Can you offer a solution that is more than wishful thinking or platitude?
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Kenisaw
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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #3

Post by Kenisaw »

Zzyzx wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:58 am
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 1) Who pays for the arson and the looting that seems to accompany even the "peaceful" protests?
Insurance companies pay for a good deal of the damage.
Which, as we all know, means the American people are the ones paying for it, as insurance rates will rise accordingly to cover the costs that actuarial science could not have possible forseen. The looters and rioters are stealing from the wallet of each of us, and that is a simple economic fact.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 2) Should states and cities which allow the "blowing off steam" be bailed out by the federal government? Should cities which tell police to "stand down" in the face of such destruction be bailed out by the US taxpayer?
Cities should not be bailed out by the federal government or US taxpayers. That money is needed to bail out banks and corporations that make unwise business decisions (and to build a wall).
We shouldn't be bailing out banks and corporations either (I know you were being sarcastic Z but I wanted to say that anyway). Nor should we bail out states or cities. They should sleep in the graffiti covered burnt-out beds that they have made...
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 3) What business is going to want to re-invest in cities which don't protect them or their employees?
That is a business decision.
The answer you are looking for is "none". The mayor of Chicago had to beg Wal-Mart to stay in the city after she held back the police while the mob tore up one of the Wal-Marts in town. Real Estate prices in NY are plummeting. Joe Rogan is leaving Los Angeles. A billion dollar company in Portland is leaving. The longer the marxist rhetoric continues and government officials play games with people's lives and property, the more individuals and companies are going to leave...
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 4) Is this arson and looting what "peaceful" protesters mean when they chant "no justice no peace"?
Sloganeering has some appeal in politics.
I'll be honest with you Elijah, I think most of the people on the ground at these protests have zero idea what is really going on. They are just looking to trash things or to feel a part of something. They have no real understanding of the bigger picture.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 5) Isn't there a better way to achieve racial justice in this country?
Racial justice and equality have not been achieved. What do you suggest be done?
There is a LOT to write on this. Very nuanced topics. But I would like to define terms first. Z and Elijah, what do you mean by equality and racial justice? I ask this because some people conflate equity with equality, and they are not the same thing. Thanks for your clarifications.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am Are we really that far away from that ideal?
Ask the people who are directly affected by racial injustice – not those who are in privileged positions.
Key word there is ideal, isn't it. Realism is a better goal.
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am 6) Are arsonists and thieves using the cause of "racial justice" as a pretext for their criminal behavior?
Those of evil intent often take advantage of circumstances – for example looting during floods. We don't tend to blame the flood for the looting.
I'm sure you've both seen the videos of various looters who didn't even know who George Floyd was. Nuff said...
Elijah John wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:26 am And in the process are they obscuring the very real grievances which peaceful protests and reformers are attempting to correct?
Of course. Can you offer a solution that is more than wishful thinking or platitude?
The very real grievance of 9 unarmed blacks out of 375 million individual police interactions in America during 2019? Until the world is a perfect place I'd say that statistically insignificant number is not correctable. At the very least there are very real problems that dwarf this particular one.

koko

Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #4

Post by koko »

Who pays for the arson caused by disguised white supremacists?




https://www.nbc12.com/2020/07/25/protes ... -set-fire/


https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020 ... es-matter/



Mayor Stoney said there were reports of white supremacists in the crowds who incited the violence.

“There were white supremacists marching under the banner of Black Lives Matter, an attempt to undermine an otherwise overwhelmingly peaceful movement toward social justice,” Stoney said. ''




Note carefully how BLM was actually PRAISED by the police chief for STOPPING violence vcaused by white supremacists.

Elijah John
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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #2]

The solution, and the remedy is working within the system, not "burning it down" as Hawk Newsome suggests. We've already had a black president and many black congressmen and women and some black senators.

Advocates for racial justice should present reasoned argument to the degree this goal has not been met, and attempt to persuade at the ballot block, the legal system or on the floors of Congress. Instead, many are attempting to intimidate on the street, and stifle free speech.

That's not what we do here, and that's not what should be done in society at large.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to koko in post #4]

Yeah, Koko, lot's of "white supremacists" in the looting videos:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=re ... F1957D4D2A

Also, "systemic racism" doesn't cause this crap, it's something else. NOT white supremacy.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

koko

Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #7

Post by koko »

Elijah John wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:57 pm [Replying to koko in post #4]

Yeah, Koko, lot's of "white supremacists" in the looting videos:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=re ... F1957D4D2A

Also, "systemic racism" doesn't cause this crap, it's something else. NOT white supremacy.


you forgot these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=cops+sl ... e&ie=UTF-8

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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #8

Post by Nataly11 »

We pay

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Re: Who pays for the arson and the looting?

Post #9

Post by Purple Knight »

People do have the right to use force when there is not justice for them. I can't limit that to those directly at fault for injustice or it would be useless to those in need of it.

Even Hitler would agree. He himself tried to rebel against a corrupt government, used deadly force, and I don't think he cared whether or not every last person in that beer hall was directly complicit, a collaborator with the Wiemar Republic, or even completely innocent.

Now, that said, I'm not excluding the victims of the looting and rioting from the statement, "People do have the right to use force when there is not justice for them." If nothing is done and they continue to be victimised they not only will fight back, not as some sort of immoral inevitability I concede and shake my head at, but they ought to fight back.

We'll just end up with a very bloody society nobody wants to live in if we can't manage to have a society where people care whether people besides themselves are treated equally.

I'm not going to posit an obligation to defend. I'm not going to point the finger at the owners of shops and talk about their privilege and what they ought to have done with it when there's not justice.

There's no obligation to defend.

But when you don't defend, you get the society you deserve.

I've said this before and I'm consistent about it, see? This is me about having other people vaccinate when they don't want to, for my benefit. I didn't defend, so I got the society I deserved.
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:26 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:02 pmHaving someone get vaccinated for your benefit isn't a privilege or a right; it's that person's moral duty not to be a danger to you.
Sure, if it's my moral duty to help him out too. It goes both ways. In this case nobody helped him when he was in need. Instead they bullied him and made him think he was getting poisoned, just to make him look stupid and themselves look smarter.

There's no question that we want the better society where we all help each other when necessary. We have to act in a way that brings that society about in order to deserve the benefits of that society. At very least we have to act in a way that prevents such a society from being torn down.

If you poop in the well, you don't deserve clean water.

Maybe you didn't poop in the well, maybe I didn't, but we all watched them doing it and did nothing to stop them.

We became a society of cleverness and intellectual/moral superiority rather than one of reason. It's no surprise that in such a society, people won't trust "the experts" when socially, expert just means more-clever-than-you-and-adopts-dominant-position-then-makes-you-look-stupid-for-own-amusement. I watched this happen, and now I'm reaping the just desserts of it.
Elijah John wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:47 pmAdvocates for racial justice should present reasoned argument to the degree this goal has not been met, and attempt to persuade at the ballot block, the legal system or on the floors of Congress. Instead, many are attempting to intimidate on the street, and stifle free speech.

That's not what we do here, and that's not what should be done in society at large.
It is very much what we do in society if it becomes bad enough, and we ought to. The Americans did it over a tea and stamp tax, then proceeded to fight a very bloody war to (among other things) end slavery.

Never use force, always Reason, is a very nice sentiment but how far do you take it? Do you not self-defend when an intruder holds a gun to your wife's head? If you can stop him, but only by killing him, do you instead try to reason with him?

I want the society where everyone acts as you proscribe but we don't live in it primarily because people are intellectual cowards.

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