Singapore or Somalia

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Elijah John
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Singapore or Somalia

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #2

Post by Kenisaw »

Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I'd rather live in America, because I can have this conversation with you without repercussion from the government. One literally cannot say that in any other country.

The Federal Government is, in my opinion, something that has overstepped the bounds intended by the Founding Fathers. One thing that they ARE supposed to do though is protect private property and Constitutional rights, so in that regard we should see a "law and order" response from the Feds if the state and local authorities fail to do so. Mayor Wheeler in Portland has not protected the rights of the citizenry, and in fact can be said to be complicit in the crimes being carried out, so therefore he has most certainly failed to protect private property and Constitutional rights. (Quite frankly he should be investigated and charged with rights violations of anyone that has suffered at the hands of the mobs that he has encouraged). It is unimaginable that this basic failure of governance happen, but that is exactly what we are seeing in many places right now. Law and Order is overdue.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #3

Post by Zzyzx »

Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I decline to participate in the dichotomy presented. There are many choices between extremes.

A big reason that Singapore is civil, clean, and lawful is that it does not have gun nuts running amok.
Singapore has one of the toughest gun control laws in the world.  According to the Arms Offences Act, unlawful possession or carrying of firearms is punishable with imprisonment and caning.  Using or attempting to use arms when committing a scheduled offense is punishable with death. The death penalty may also apply to the offender’s accomplices present at the scene of the offense. 

Any person proved to be in unlawful possession of more than two firearms will be presumed to be trafficking in arms until the contrary is proved.  Trafficking in arms is punishable with either death or imprisonment for life and with caning.

Possessing any firearms or importing, exporting, manufacturing, repairing, or selling them, requires a license.  Licensing officers have the authority to refuse to issue a license, or to suspend or cancel a license without giving any reason.
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-c ... gapore.php
Is that the kind of 'law and order' you promote?
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #4

Post by Bust Nak »

Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
Depends on the specifics. We should err on my side.
So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?
Yes. Racial injustice is the direct cause of the ongoing violence.
Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
Singapore, because it is a closer match to my ideal than Somalia.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #5

Post by Kenisaw »

Zzyzx wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I decline to participate in the dichotomy presented. There are many choices between extremes.

A big reason that Singapore is civil, clean, and lawful is that it does not have gun nuts running amok.
It has a lot more to do with the punishments involved for committing any crime in that city. Drug use is a death sentence. Switzerland is civil, clean, and lawful and everybody there has a gun. You have zero demonstrable evidence validating your claim, and you know it.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #6

Post by Kenisaw »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:44 am
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm
So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?
Yes. Racial injustice is the direct cause of the ongoing violence.
I find it hard to believe that you think that is a realistic conclusion. Antifa has been using terror tactics in that City for years. They have rioted and burned black owned businesses. They call black police officers racial slurs. A Portland cop recently had a video out where he noted that there were more blacks in the police line than in the crowd of rioters. It has not been about racial injustice, it is political. They are led by marxists. Most of the kids out on the street are too ignorant to understand the bigger picture here, but they are following the Karl 101 playbook...

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #7

Post by Bust Nak »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:08 pm I find it hard to believe that you think that is a realistic conclusion. Antifa has been using terror tactics in that City for years. They have rioted and burned black owned businesses. They call black police officers racial slurs. A Portland cop recently had a video out where he noted that there were more blacks in the police line than in the crowd of rioters.
Not seeing how you go from the above premises to this conclusion below...
It has not been about racial injustice, it is political.
Why not both? Leftist ideologies line up with just fine with the fight against racial injustice.
They are led by marxists. Most of the kids out on the street are too ignorant to understand the bigger picture here, but they are following the Karl 101 playbook...
Give kids more credit. While they may not associate what they are doing with terms such as communism, Marxism, or socialism, I think they are well aware that they are aligning themselves with the left.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #8

Post by Kenisaw »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:54 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:08 pm I find it hard to believe that you think that is a realistic conclusion. Antifa has been using terror tactics in that City for years. They have rioted and burned black owned businesses. They call black police officers racial slurs. A Portland cop recently had a video out where he noted that there were more blacks in the police line than in the crowd of rioters.
Not seeing how you go from the above premises to this conclusion below...
It has not been about racial injustice, it is political.
Why not both? Leftist ideologies line up with just fine with the fight against racial injustice.
Not ideologies that far left. Marxist do not care about racial injustice, not really. They will use anything divisive that they can in order to promote their failed dogma. There's a trail of bodies through the 20th century that show that readily enough. Marxists care about political change, not racial harmony.

Which is why the above facts (not premises) lead to my conclusion. You can't FIGHT racial injustice while you COMMIT racial injustice.
They are led by marxists. Most of the kids out on the street are too ignorant to understand the bigger picture here, but they are following the Karl 101 playbook...
Give kids more credit. While they may not associate what they are doing with terms such as communism, Marxism, or socialism, I think they are well aware that they are aligning themselves with the left.
I'm sure they feel like radicals, and think they are doing something important. They also feel guilty for being rich and white, which is being rather easily manipulated by the leaders. They are aware that they are aligning with the left, but they don't understand what that means or where it leads. They aren't liberals. They aren't even Democrats. Their actions speak for themselves.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #9

Post by Zzyzx »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:02 pm
Zzyzx wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I decline to participate in the dichotomy presented. There are many choices between extremes.

A big reason that Singapore is civil, clean, and lawful is that it does not have gun nuts running amok.
It has a lot more to do with the punishments involved for committing any crime in that city. Drug use is a death sentence. Switzerland is civil, clean, and lawful and everybody there has a gun. You have zero demonstrable evidence validating your claim, and you know it.
Of course there is no relationship between gun ownership and crime in Singapore . . .[/sarcasm]
Singapore has a reputation for being one of the safest cities in the world. Violent crime is rare – as of 2017, its intentional homicide rate was just 0.7 per 100 thousand population. One reason for this could be the harsh penalties for offenders,as well as a strict ban on weapons for those not in law enforcement. Singapore still carries out capital punishment, and crimes such as murder and the illegal possession of firearms carry the death penalty.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/628 ... singapore/
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #10

Post by Bust Nak »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:22 pm Not ideologies that far left. Marxist do not care about racial injustice, not really. They will use anything divisive that they can in order to promote their failed dogma. There's a trail of bodies through the 20th century that show that readily enough. Marxists care about political change, not racial harmony.
I agree with this much, which is why I used the term "line up with " as opposed to equating racial harmony with leftist ideologies.
Which is why the above facts (not premises) lead to my conclusion. You can't FIGHT racial injustice while you COMMIT racial injustice.
As in burning down black owned businesses and calling black police officers racial slurs? Easy to chalk these up as collateral damage, rather than as targeted racial injustice.
I'm sure they feel like radicals, and think they are doing something important. They also feel guilty for being rich and white, which is being rather easily manipulated by the leaders. They are aware that they are aligning with the left, but they don't understand what that means or where it leads.
It's not really that hard to see where they want it to lead, a more western Europe/Scandinavian like society: strong social safety nets including universal health care, high taxes, nationalised companies in key industries, maybe even electoral reform.
They aren't liberals. They aren't even Democrats. Their actions speak for themselves.
I am not so sure being radical violent protestors would rule them out as (lower case) liberal democrats.

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