Singapore or Somalia

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Elijah John
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Singapore or Somalia

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Kenisaw
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #11

Post by Kenisaw »

Zzyzx wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:23 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:02 pm
Zzyzx wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I decline to participate in the dichotomy presented. There are many choices between extremes.

A big reason that Singapore is civil, clean, and lawful is that it does not have gun nuts running amok.
It has a lot more to do with the punishments involved for committing any crime in that city. Drug use is a death sentence. Switzerland is civil, clean, and lawful and everybody there has a gun. You have zero demonstrable evidence validating your claim, and you know it.
Of course there is no relationship between gun ownership and crime in Singapore . . .[/sarcasm]
Easy to claim, pretty darn hard to prove Z. There is no correlation in the world between gun ownership and crime. There are plenty of places (South Africa is one) where guns aren't allowed and crime is rampant. Venezuela is another one. Meanwhile Switzerland is very low crime. There are twenty million guns in Canada, yet there violent crime rate is half of the U.S. Of course, I mention you have zero demonstrable evidence, and you respond with sarcasm. You've obviously already thrown the towel in on this one...
Singapore has a reputation for being one of the safest cities in the world. Violent crime is rare – as of 2017, its intentional homicide rate was just 0.7 per 100 thousand population. One reason for this could be the harsh penalties for offenders,as well as a strict ban on weapons for those not in law enforcement. Singapore still carries out capital punishment, and crimes such as murder and the illegal possession of firearms carry the death penalty.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/628 ... singapore/
Except as I've shown above banning weapons has nothing to do with violent crime rates. But I appreciate the link.

Oh, and don't chew gum if you are ever in Singapore. Even having it in your suitcase when you enter is considered trafficking. They don't want gum on the sidewalks you see. They are a little strict. But keep on thinking it has everything to do with gun ownership...SMH

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Miles
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #12

Post by Miles »

Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?

Boy, right out of the gate and there's a stumble. And a bad one too.


"Hundreds gathered in downtown Portland in the 53rd straight night of protests in Portland.'
Source: The Oregonian July 19, 2020

"For more than fifty days, protests in Portland have carried on."
Source: CNN July 20,2020

"Protesters have been in the streets for more than 50 consecutive days. Federal agents deployed to Portland have hardened their resolve to stay there."
Source: The New York Times July 19,2020

"50 Days Of Protest In Portland. A Violent Police Response. This Is How We Got Here."
Source: Oregone Public Broadcasting July 19, 2020

"Friday marks 50 days of consecutive protests in downtown Portland in response to the killing of George Floyd in late May,"
Source:KOIN News july 17, 2020

"It’s been 53 days of protest in Portland."
Source: Justseeds. July 20. 2020

"Over the course of the past 53 days of continuous protests in Portland, Oregon,. . . . "
Source: The Organization for World Peace ·July 20,2020

On Sunday, Portlanders took to the federal courthouse for the 53rd consecutive day of protests."
Source; Olympian.org July 20.2020

"Protesters outside the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon were targeted with tear gas by federal officers for the sixth night in a row Sunday, reports the CBS affiliate there, KOIN-TV. It marked the 52nd straight night of protests in the city against police violence and for racial justice."
Source CBS News July 20,2020

"For more than 50 nights, hundreds have gathered in the city's downtown to protest racism and police brutality, following the killing of George Floyd. "
Source: National Public Radio July 19, 2020

"The 50th day of protests in Portland started peacefully at 7 pm with a candlelight vigil held by City Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty outside the Justice Center. "
Source: Portland Mercury July 20, 2020

"There’s a joke that’s not a joke that you’ll hear if you hang out at Portland’s protests, as of Tuesday in their 54th consecutive day since police in Minneapolis killed George Floyd over a possibly fake $20 bill by kneeling on his neck while he begged for his life."
Source: Court House News July 21, 2020

"Portland protests: Trump threatens to send officers to more US cities
Trump's crackdown on Portland protests explained"
Source: BBC News July 21, 2020

" President Donald Trump said Monday that federal law enforcement in Portland, Oregon, has done "a fantastic job."
"They've been there three days, and they've really done a fantastic job in a very short period of time," he said. "No problem. They grab them; a lot of people in jail." However, according to a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney in the District of Oregon only two people were arrested during the protests over the weekend and neither were charged and both were released."
Source: ABC News. July 21, 2020

Hardly bodes well for whatever else you said.

.
Last edited by Miles on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Kenisaw
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #13

Post by Kenisaw »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:09 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?

Boy, right out of the gate and there's a stumble. And a bad one too.


"Hundreds gathered in downtown Portland in the 53rd straight night of protests in Portland.'
Source: The Oregonian July 19, 2020

"For more than fifty days, protests in Portland have carried on."
Source: CNN July 20,2020

"Protesters have been in the streets for more than 50 consecutive days. Federal agents deployed to Portland have hardened their resolve to stay there."
Source: The New York Times July 19,2020

"50 Days Of Protest In Portland. A Violent Police Response. This Is How We Got Here."
Source: Oregone Public Broadcasting July 19, 2020

"Friday marks 50 days of consecutive protests in downtown Portland in response to the killing of George Floyd in late May,"
Source:KOIN News july 17, 2020

"It’s been 53 days of protest in Portland."
Source: Justseeds. July 20. 2020

"Over the course of the past 53 days of continuous protests in Portland, Oregon,. . . . "
Source: The Organization for World Peace ·July 20,2020

On Sunday, Portlanders took to the federal courthouse for the 53rd consecutive day of protests."
Source; Olympian.org July 20.2020

"Protesters outside the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon were targeted with tear gas by federal officers for the sixth night in a row Sunday, reports the CBS affiliate there, KOIN-TV. It marked the 52nd straight night of protests in the city against police violence and for racial justice."
Source CBS News July 20,2020

"For more than 50 nights, hundreds have gathered in the city's downtown to protest racism and police brutality, following the killing of George Floyd. "
Source: National Public Radio July 19, 2020


Hardly bodes well for what else you said.

.
Definition of protest (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a solemn declaration of opinion and usually of dissent: such as a: a sworn declaration that payment of a note or bill has been refused and that all responsible signers or debtors are liable for resulting loss or damage
b: a declaration made especially before or while paying that a tax is illegal and that payment is not voluntary
2: the act of objecting or a gesture of disapproval resigned in protest especially : a usually organized public demonstration of disapproval
3: a complaint, objection, or display of unwillingness usually to an idea or a course of action went under protest
4: an objection made to an official or a governing body of a sport

Definition of riot (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: a violent public disorder specifically : a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent
b: public violence, tumult, or disorder


Perhaps you need to stop believing the legacy media and start using your own eyes....

Elijah John
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #14

Post by Elijah John »

Zzyzx wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:47 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?
I decline to participate in the dichotomy presented. There are many choices between extremes.

A big reason that Singapore is civil, clean, and lawful is that it does not have gun nuts running amok.
So which "gun nuts" are causing the misery and rioting in major, liberal run cities in the US? Who are you calling "gun nuts"? The police? NRA?

Or are you referring to the "gun nuts" who terrorize places like Chicago with illegal fire arms, commiting murder and mayhem. (14 shot at a funeral just yesterday)

Law abiding people who own firearms are not gun nuts. It's criminals who are the problem, whether violence is commited under the pretext of "protest", or that commited by inner city gangs. Are there many "gun nuts" roving about, wreaking havoc in the Ozarks and on the people who live there? If so, I missed it. I think if that was the case, CNN would shout it from the rooftops.

And regarding the dichotomy presented in the OP, yes, I realize there are many choices between the extremes. The point of the OP is that if we err, on which side do we err? The side of law and order, or the side of chaos, rioting and destruction? Seems the Democrats would rather err on the side of chaos, and the Republicans on the side of law and order.

Who gets hurt if we are too lenient? I think the current headlines indicate that it's the law-abiding who get hurt, killed, and have their livelihoods destroyed by looters, arsonists and rioters. What gives them the right to do this? Who do they think they are? And who pays for the destruction they cause?

If you had to choose, would you rather live in a place like Singapore? Or Somalia? The gun issue is a separate one.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #15

Post by Elijah John »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:09 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?

Boy, right out of the gate and there's a stumble. And a bad one too.


"Hundreds gathered in downtown Portland in the 53rd straight night of protests in Portland.'
Source: The Oregonian July 19, 2020

"For more than fifty days, protests in Portland have carried on."
Source: CNN July 20,2020

"Protesters have been in the streets for more than 50 consecutive days. Federal agents deployed to Portland have hardened their resolve to stay there."
Source: The New York Times July 19,2020

"50 Days Of Protest In Portland. A Violent Police Response. This Is How We Got Here."
Source: Oregone Public Broadcasting July 19, 2020

"Friday marks 50 days of consecutive protests in downtown Portland in response to the killing of George Floyd in late May,"
Source:KOIN News july 17, 2020

"It’s been 53 days of protest in Portland."
Source: Justseeds. July 20. 2020

"Over the course of the past 53 days of continuous protests in Portland, Oregon,. . . . "
Source: The Organization for World Peace ·July 20,2020

On Sunday, Portlanders took to the federal courthouse for the 53rd consecutive day of protests."
Source; Olympian.org July 20.2020

"Protesters outside the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon were targeted with tear gas by federal officers for the sixth night in a row Sunday, reports the CBS affiliate there, KOIN-TV. It marked the 52nd straight night of protests in the city against police violence and for racial justice."
Source CBS News July 20,2020

"For more than 50 nights, hundreds have gathered in the city's downtown to protest racism and police brutality, following the killing of George Floyd. "
Source: National Public Radio July 19, 2020

"The 50th day of protests in Portland started peacefully at 7 pm with a candlelight vigil held by City Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty outside the Justice Center. "
Source: Portland Mercury July 20, 2020

"There’s a joke that’s not a joke that you’ll hear if you hang out at Portland’s protests, as of Tuesday in their 54th consecutive day since police in Minneapolis killed George Floyd over a possibly fake $20 bill by kneeling on his neck while he begged for his life."
Source: Court House News July 21, 2020

"Portland protests: Trump threatens to send officers to more US cities
Trump's crackdown on Portland protests explained"
Source: BBC News July 21, 2020

" President Donald Trump said Monday that federal law enforcement in Portland, Oregon, has done "a fantastic job."
"They've been there three days, and they've really done a fantastic job in a very short period of time," he said. "No problem. They grab them; a lot of people in jail." However, according to a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney in the District of Oregon only two people were arrested during the protests over the weekend and neither were charged and both were released."
Source: ABC News. July 21, 2020

Hardly bodes well for whatever else you said.

.
Gee, there seems to be a lot of flames, hurled objects and destruction associated with these "protests". The word the media likes to use to describe the lawlessness amounts to whitewash and a euphemism, at best. Well, at least the source you cite does not call them "peaceful" protests. And where in the Constitution is it written there is a right to violent protest? And under what circumstances?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Miles
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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #16

Post by Miles »

Elijah John wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:54 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:09 pm
Elijah John wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:31 pm Portland Oregon has been engulfed with riots for 53 days and counting. Mayor Wheeler doesn't seem to be doing much about it except blaming President Trump for "provocation". President Trump has sent Federal agents to help restore the peace, and to protect Federal property. And the local authorities are crying "foul" to put it mildly.

So it seems to be a question of where to err, if we must err. On the side of chaos? Or on the side of law and order.
If the authorities err on the side of the protesters, rioters and looters, cities are destroyed from within. If authorities go too far with law enforcement, peoples civil liberties (free speech etc) may be curtailed, at least temporarily.

It seems fallacious to frame the debate as "if you are for law and order, you are against racial justice", or vice versa. There are many outstanding minority police and individuals who respect and uphold the law.

So, isn't this really a conflict between the forces of chaos and anarchy vs. the forces of law and order? Does this ongoing violence really have all that much to do with racial justice?

And if have to err, should we err on the side of law and order? Or on the side of protest and chaos even if it results in more crime and violence? Where would you rather live, Singapore known for it's civility, cleanliness and lawfulness, or Somalia known for it's violence, lawlessness and chaos, and why?

Boy, right out of the gate and there's a stumble. And a bad one too.


"Hundreds gathered in downtown Portland in the 53rd straight night of protests in Portland.'
Source: The Oregonian July 19, 2020

"For more than fifty days, protests in Portland have carried on."
Source: CNN July 20,2020

"Protesters have been in the streets for more than 50 consecutive days. Federal agents deployed to Portland have hardened their resolve to stay there."
Source: The New York Times July 19,2020

"50 Days Of Protest In Portland. A Violent Police Response. This Is How We Got Here."
Source: Oregone Public Broadcasting July 19, 2020

"Friday marks 50 days of consecutive protests in downtown Portland in response to the killing of George Floyd in late May,"
Source:KOIN News july 17, 2020

"It’s been 53 days of protest in Portland."
Source: Justseeds. July 20. 2020

"Over the course of the past 53 days of continuous protests in Portland, Oregon,. . . . "
Source: The Organization for World Peace ·July 20,2020

On Sunday, Portlanders took to the federal courthouse for the 53rd consecutive day of protests."
Source; Olympian.org July 20.2020

"Protesters outside the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon were targeted with tear gas by federal officers for the sixth night in a row Sunday, reports the CBS affiliate there, KOIN-TV. It marked the 52nd straight night of protests in the city against police violence and for racial justice."
Source CBS News July 20,2020

"For more than 50 nights, hundreds have gathered in the city's downtown to protest racism and police brutality, following the killing of George Floyd. "
Source: National Public Radio July 19, 2020

"The 50th day of protests in Portland started peacefully at 7 pm with a candlelight vigil held by City Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty outside the Justice Center. "
Source: Portland Mercury July 20, 2020

"There’s a joke that’s not a joke that you’ll hear if you hang out at Portland’s protests, as of Tuesday in their 54th consecutive day since police in Minneapolis killed George Floyd over a possibly fake $20 bill by kneeling on his neck while he begged for his life."
Source: Court House News July 21, 2020

"Portland protests: Trump threatens to send officers to more US cities
Trump's crackdown on Portland protests explained"
Source: BBC News July 21, 2020

" President Donald Trump said Monday that federal law enforcement in Portland, Oregon, has done "a fantastic job."
"They've been there three days, and they've really done a fantastic job in a very short period of time," he said. "No problem. They grab them; a lot of people in jail." However, according to a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney in the District of Oregon only two people were arrested during the protests over the weekend and neither were charged and both were released."
Source: ABC News. July 21, 2020

Hardly bodes well for whatever else you said.

.
Gee, there seems to be a lot of flames, hurled objects and destruction associated with these "protests". The word the media likes to use to describe the lawlessness amounts to whitewash and a euphemism, at best. Well, at least the source you cite does not call them "peaceful" protests. And where in the Constitution is it written there is a right to violent protest? And under what circumstances?
1) Protesting isn't against the law.
2) No mention of protestors rioting.
3) No mention of lawless protesting.
4) No mention of violent protest. In fact, the only mention of violence in any of the quotes I've presented is police violence.

"50 Days Of Protest In Portland. A Violent Police Response. This Is How We Got Here."
Source: Oregone Public Broadcasting July 19, 2020
.

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Re: Singapore or Somalia

Post #17

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:23 pm So which "gun nuts" are causing the misery and rioting in major, liberal run cities in the US? Who are you calling "gun nuts"? The police? NRA?

Or are you referring to the "gun nuts" who terrorize places like Chicago with illegal fire arms, commiting murder and mayhem. (14 shot at a funeral just yesterday)

Law abiding people who own firearms are not gun nuts. It's criminals who are the problem, whether violence is commited under the pretext of "protest", or that commited by inner city gangs. Are there many "gun nuts" roving about, wreaking havoc in the Ozarks and on the people who live there? If so, I missed it. I think if that was the case, CNN would shout it from the rooftops.
Is it possible that there is an element of racism - at least in consequence rather than intent - to opposing stricter gun control in the knowledge that black people are disproportionately affected? Interestingly, of the NRA's 75 elected directors 71 are white. This reminds me of some info I'd gathered a while back, but not really relevant to your thread. I'd appreciate your thoughts in the new thread I started.

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