White Guilt. Good or bad?

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AgnosticBoy
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White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

White guilt[1][2][3] is the individual or collective guilt felt by some white people for harm resulting from racist treatment of ethnic minorities such as African Americans and indigenous peoples by other white people, most specifically in the context of the Atlantic slave trade, European colonialism and the legacy of these eras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt

IN my view, White guilt causes a lot of White Americans to be weak and passive on race issues. This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.

For debate:
Should White people feel guilty for something that their ancestors did?

Does White guilt make Whites weak on race issues?

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #2

Post by Bust Nak »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am Should White people feel guilty for something that their ancestors did?
Hard to say, depends on how much an individual is still benefiting today from the stuff their ancestors did.
Does White guilt make Whites weak on race issues?
Does matching along side people of color against racism counts as being weak of race issue? White guilt is a strong motivation for supporting racial equality.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #3

Post by bjs1 »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am White guilt[1][2][3] is the individual or collective guilt felt by some white people for harm resulting from racist treatment of ethnic minorities such as African Americans and indigenous peoples by other white people, most specifically in the context of the Atlantic slave trade, European colonialism and the legacy of these eras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt

IN my view, White guilt causes a lot of White Americans to be weak and passive on race issues. This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.
You only waited 16 hours before declaring that “not one member... called it out.” Had you waited a little longer, you would have seen that Mithrae said that, even knowing it was staged, taking the picture was “callous, idiotic and dangerous.” Then EJ called the man in the picture a “monster.”

Perhaps this was less about white guilt and more about impatience on your part? People do have lives outside of this forum.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #4

Post by AgnosticBoy »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:05 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am White guilt[1][2][3] is the individual or collective guilt felt by some white people for harm resulting from racist treatment of ethnic minorities such as African Americans and indigenous peoples by other white people, most specifically in the context of the Atlantic slave trade, European colonialism and the legacy of these eras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt

IN my view, White guilt causes a lot of White Americans to be weak and passive on race issues. This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.
You only waited 16 hours before declaring that “not one member... called it out.” Had you waited a little longer, you would have seen that Mithrae said that, even knowing it was staged, taking the picture was “callous, idiotic and dangerous.” Then EJ called the man in the picture a “monster.”

Perhaps this was less about white guilt and more about impatience on your part? People do have lives outside of this forum.
Some members are quick to bring up the charge of racism. Perhaps I could've waited longer but I still don't see the condemnation from BLM and others who are quick to use the race card.

Also, the photo was not staged. The man in the photo, Isaiah Jackson, was arrested. You can clearly see the kid crying in the photo. I won't assume that you also think the toddler consented to this or was acting. Besides that, emotional harm can be just as bad or worse than physical harm.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #5

Post by Icey »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]

White guilt. I find that hysterical. Why should anyone be guilty about how they were born when they had on choice in the matter?
Actions are more important than physical race.
Guilt, when used as a weapon, is wrong, no matter to what color it's attributed! Politically speaking.
Speaking on reality, guilt is the action of the individual's acceptance of outside stimuli. One chooses to act on the feeling of guilt or not. I can't make you feel guilty. I can provide actions that can create the feeling in you, but accepting that feeling? That's only the ability of the individual. As are all feelings.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #6

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.
Is that what you saw in the picture? A "black man" and a "white toddler"? That's interesting. I couldn't (and still can't) find any visual reason to ascribe those 'races' to them. The man's chest looks like the same skin tone as the toddler's arms; his knee looks darker than the toddler's face, but that could easily be due to the lighting. The person holding the toddler's arms looks noticeably darker but could be hispanic, middle-eastern, south or south-east asian... even a well-tanned 'white' person. If what you saw was a "black man" and a "white toddler," maybe that says more about you than about people who didn't pronounce a condemnation quick enough for your liking.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am For debate:
Should White people feel guilty for something that their ancestors did?
I suspect that not many people would say that they have 'white guilt,' and almost all who do would insist that systems of oppression and privilege in place now are one of if not the only reason for it. Some might experience white guilt in a similar sense to that of survivor's guilt; the juxtaposition of unearned good fortune against others' hardship/suffering/death is likely to be a powerful emotional catalyst (at least for people with empathy towards those disadvantaged), even though guilt per se might not be the appropriate emotion. But for the most part, the only times I myself have seen mention of 'white guilt' is in right-wing caricatures from people for whom it is absurd to even talk sensibly about how to correct obvious racial disparities.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am Does White guilt make Whites weak on race issues?
What does that even mean? You gave an example above - which is dubious in itself, in your professed ability to see a "black man" kneeling on a "white toddler" - but calling out members of this forum as being subject to 'white guilt' when you can't even see them obviously goes a step beyond even that. It seems that in your mind being "weak on race issues" means not agreeing with AgnosticBoy. Maybe it would be more informative if you first gave some examples of being 'strong' on race issues. For example:
- Insisting that statues/monuments to white supremicist slavers should be preserved regardless of any offense they may cause?
- Repeatedly 'questioning' or claiming that a person was born in Kenya, for years on end and in the face of all evidence, simply because of the infamy of being the first black president?
- Declaring that most or all racial disparities can be explained because "black people genetically have lower intelligence"?
- Saying the n-word loudly and proudly while quoting or singing along to music regardless of any offense it may cause?
- Making a point of mentioning the real or imagined colour of someone's skin if they commit a crime?

Are any of these examples of being 'strong' on race issues? If not, what would you consider to be strong?

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #7

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Mithrae wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:40 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:30 am This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.
Is that what you saw in the picture? A "black man" and a "white toddler"? That's interesting. I couldn't (and still can't) find any visual reason to ascribe those 'races' to them. The man's chest looks like the same skin tone as the toddler's arms; his knee looks darker than the toddler's face, but that could easily be due to the lighting. The person holding the toddler's arms looks noticeably darker but could be hispanic, middle-eastern, south or south-east asian... even a well-tanned 'white' person. If what you saw was a "black man" and a "white toddler," maybe that says more about you than about people who didn't pronounce a condemnation quick enough for your liking.
I pulled up his arrest record in an inmate database and he is listed as a Black male. You can also Google other photos of him if that photo was too poor to determine race.

http://www.clark.miamivalleyjails.org/

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #8

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:13 am I pulled up his arrest record in an inmate database and he is listed as a Black male. You can also Google other photos of him if that photo was too poor to determine race.

http://www.clark.miamivalleyjails.org/
I know all that, but you didn't post that information in your other thread (if you'd even looked it up beforehand at all): According to your comments above, you expected people to see and call out this "act of racism against a White toddler" by a "Black man" based on the picture you posted. And you then attribute the absence of anyone doing so in the first 14 hours to "white guilt" despite not having seen anyone here.

In any case, could you answer my closing question; do you consider any of those suggestions I listed to be examples of being 'strong' on race issues? And if not, what do you think would be 'strong' on race issues?

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #9

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Mithrae wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:03 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:13 am I pulled up his arrest record in an inmate database and he is listed as a Black male. You can also Google other photos of him if that photo was too poor to determine race.

http://www.clark.miamivalleyjails.org/
I know all that, but you didn't post that information in your other thread (if you'd even looked it up beforehand at all): According to your comments above, you expected people to see and call out this "act of racism against a White toddler" by a "Black man" based on the picture you posted. And you then attribute the absence of anyone doing so in the first 14 hours to "white guilt" despite not having seen anyone here.
Well out of all the people I would have expected to respond, I would have thought it would have been Whites since the act was done against a White toddler. In general everyone here, including those who have been quick to call others racist, should have responded... members like Zzyzx. I question how much people really care about racism (as in not just doing it for political reasons) when they are selectively silent (or selective in calling it out) on the matter. All racism (including those acts of racism against White Americans) matter.
Mithrae wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:03 pm In any case, could you answer my closing question; do you consider any of those suggestions I listed to be examples of being 'strong' on race issues? And if not, what do you think would be 'strong' on race issues?
In general, I'm referring to White people being willing to speak their mind on the race issue.

Calling out minorities when they are wrong and fully supporting them when they are right. As of now it just seems that people are expected to just go along with everything minorities say or do when it comes to the race issue.

- for instance BLM has called for defunding the police. Many Whites go along with that even though that is one of the most unreasonable ideas ever.


But why would Whites who don't experience racism from cops be in support of something like that? Do they feel obligated to support whatever a large group of minorities call for just as long as it's prefaced by racism (or the perception of such)? Do you see how that can be abused?

If I don't perceive it as racism then I won't go along with it, and that's even if a large group of minorities perceives it as such. I go by what's right and wrong based on logic and evidence. That's an example of not being passive when the race issue comes up.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #10

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:50 am
Mithrae wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:03 pm In any case, could you answer my closing question; do you consider any of those suggestions I listed to be examples of being 'strong' on race issues? And if not, what do you think would be 'strong' on race issues?
In general, I'm referring to White people being willing to speak their mind on the race issue.

Calling out minorities when they are wrong and fully supporting them when they are right. As of now it just seems that people are expected to just go along with everything minorities say or do when it comes to the race issue.
Expected by whom? Seems to me that half of y'all fight tooth and nail against anything which 'minorities' or anyone presumed to be on the left say or do regardless of merit... while simultaneously playing the victim card as if everyone in the country were against them and saying something against a 'minority' makes them some kind of hero bravely speaking truth in the face of oppression :lol: A (seemingly much smaller) number of folk do indeed give the impression that you're describing.
- for instance BLM has called for defunding the police. Many Whites go along with that even though that is one of the most unreasonable ideas ever.
That was my gut reaction too, but really if you were designing a society from scratch, would you allocate exactly that amount to policing? Do you even know what that dollar figure is? It doesn't seem obviously unreasonable to propose reducing it. If you've got a few million dollars of spare funding, is it best spent on programs like education, job skills courses, income support, local infrastructure, community centres and healthcare - all aimed at reducing the ignorance, alienation and poverty most closely correlated with crime, especially violent crime - or to pour it into strictly punitive policing? And in particular, funding private for-profit prisons seems like one of the most perverse incentives imaginable, creating an interest group specifically tailored to lobby against crime reduction and successful rehabilitation programs!

Simply going with a gut reaction and virtuously assuming that it must be correct and everyone who disagrees merely bowing to 'white guilt' is pretty much guaranteed to shut down effective communication and uphold the absurdity of the USA for all its wealth and education having the highest incarceration rate in the world.

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