The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

[AgnosticBoy]

Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.

Do a few bad cops make all police bad?

Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?

[historia]

To this day official government statistics tell you college graduates earn over one million more dollars than do high school graduates. In my experience, again, that is nothing mjore than a blatant lie designed to fool people into wasting their money on loans that enrich banks and other wealthy elitist institutions.

I appreciate the fact you have not personally benefited financially from your education. But there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that your experience is typical of the millions of college graduates in the United States.

Likewise, there is no good reason to think that the statistics mentioned above are inaccurate. They clearly show that those with a higher education have, on average, higher income.

Again, the MAJORITY of my classmates had precisely the same experience as I did.

I appreciate the fact that many of your classmates did not personally benefit financially from their education. But there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that their experience is typical of the millions of college graduates in the United States.

Likewise, there is no good reason to think that the statistics mentioned above are inaccurate. They clearly show that those with a higher education have, on average, higher income.

Still think my experience is unique?

No one said it is "unique." It's just not typical of the 40+ million college graduates in the United States.

If colleges are so great, why are so many closing?

According to Education Dive, more than 100 for-profit and career colleges closed between 2016-17 and 2017-18 alone.Dec 13, 2018

Many for-profit and career colleges provide grossly substandard education and are a complete waste of money. I'm sorry you made the mistake of attending such a school. They should close.

But the vast, vast majority of college graduates did not attend such institutions.

Suppose that was your child who committed suicide because of that experience, what would you be saying?

I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now, because my feelings don't change the facts.

[historia]

We should not forget, especially in light of the claims being made by this O.P., that education is not a solution for systemic racism.

I think that's rushing to conclusions based on insufficient data.

I'll let "The Dude" handle this one:

I would not have expected such a frivolous response from you, Tcg.

The fact that Asian and Jewish American communities were once lower class and now have a higher per capita income than (non-Jewish) whites is not my opinion, it's a fact.

Perhaps you can explain how that happened if education is not a solution for systemic racism.

[AgnosticBoy]

We are getting off track here. I started this thread to address the problem that is keeping Blacks from success. I brought up EDUCATION because many Blacks that have made it out of poverty have had education under their belt.

Based on some of the thinking I'm getting here and other places, I can say that Blacks are keeping Blacks from success. We're not in the pre 1960s (pre civil rights era) but yet there are Americans that still have their heads stuck there, refusing to acknowledge any progress and taking responsibility for their OWN actions.

Here's the main point. You can't expect to get into company by emphasizing a hot button issue, ie race. In the same way, if I put I'm a Republican on my resume don't you think that's asking for trouble?

That's because there is legitimate reasons for not liking Republicans, where as there is no legitimate reasons for not liking Blacks.

Race and politics are hot button issues. Just try having a conversation about either topic at the workplace.

Where you saw race as an issue because you're looking for a race issue, I saw a lesson which is to stay away from hot button issues during an interview or on my resume.

That's why there are studies on this to highlight the fact that it is racial bias and not some generic thing that applies every race equally. Changing the name to more white sounding gets you positive results.

Actually, not everything should be equal in the workplace. If I'm better worker than you, then I should make more. Your points remind me of the arguments for gender neutrality. The two genders should be equal as they say, but then you find the same proponents hiding when you ask them to explain how that would work well in contact sports, sharing bathrooms, etc. Every single aspect must be equal, right? : /

As a corporate exec. I don't care about race. If you allow people to emphasize race then why not also gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc?

Why not indeed. A diverse workplace is a good thing.

I don't need a workplace full of activists that think their identity gives them some special status. In my book, a Black person can potentially be just as good as a White person at work. I don't need someone to emphasize that their Black, gay, Liberal, etc.

To get rid of racial issues we need to become color blind. Stop emphasizing race.

Here are ACTUAL facts and not just THEORY or made up studies...

In what way does the fact that Blacks and Hispanics getting paid less than their white counterparts consistently across the board, support your claim that racism is a thing of the past?

Racism exist, and it may do so always, but it is not to the point or degree of suppressing Blacks. Blacks are not being held in chains or as slaves, and they have plenty of educational and VOTING opportunity, if they choose to use it.

[koko]

I appreciate the fact that many of your classmates did not personally benefit financially from their education. But there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that their experience is typical of the millions of college graduates in the United States.

Likewise, there is no good reason to think that the statistics mentioned above are inaccurate. They clearly show that those with a higher education have, on average, higher income.



No one said it is "unique." It's just not typical of the 40+ million college graduates in the United States.



Many for-profit and career colleges provide grossly substandard education and are a complete waste of money. I'm sorry you made the mistake of attending such a school. They should close.

But the vast, vast majority of college graduates did not attend such institutions.



I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now, because my feelings don't change the facts.

~ many ~


Not 'many'. The MAJORITY.



~ not typical ~


Statistically, it is one in four or 25%. I would argue that it is higher. Still, many of these people according to those same stats are in their 50s to early 60s. This is a tremendous burden.


~ complete waste of money ~

Too true. But note that many are also public schools.



~ {debt} suicides ~

To me, even one is too many.




Amazingly, many right wingers claim to be pro life and oppose abortion on the grounds that it is "murder". Yet, they have no objection to the murder caused by liars who operate schools which lead to the deaths of innocents. I am not saying you belong in this category. But it is something for people to consider.

[Bust Nak]

I started this thread to address the problem that is keeping Blacks from success. I brought up EDUCATION because many Blacks that have made it out of poverty have had education under their belt.

Same challenge as before, you say the problem as is only one problem. There is a way for Black to succeed isn't much of point when it require way more effort due to racism, is that not also a problem?

Based on some of the thinking I'm getting here and other places, I can say that Blacks are keeping Blacks from success. We're not in the pre 1960s (pre civil rights era) but yet there are Americans that still have their heads stuck there, refusing to acknowledge any progress and taking responsibility for their OWN actions.

Maybe so, but that's no excise to minimise things that is beyond their responsibility, of things that still need to be improved.

Race and politics are hot button issues. Just try having a conversation about either topic at the workplace.

I can grant you that much.

Actually, not everything should be equal in the workplace. If I'm better worker than you, then I should make more. Your points remind me of the arguments for gender neutrality. The two genders should be equal as they say, but then you find the same proponents hiding when you ask them to explain how that would work well in contact sports, sharing bathrooms, etc.

That's fine, I didn't say nor imply everything should be equal.

Every single aspect must be equal, right?

No, but things like treatment based on gender and race should be equal.

I don't need a workplace full of activists that think their identity gives them some special status.

A good place to start is to stop giving some people specials status. Who has the special status here, someone who has to alter their name to be more employable, or someone who can just use their given name?

In my book, a Black person can potentially be just as good as a White person at work. I don't need someone to emphasize that their Black, gay, Liberal, etc.

To get rid of racial issues we need to become color blind. Stop emphasizing race.

This is about having to deemphasize race though. Some people have to hide their race while others don't.

Racism exist, and it may do so always, but it is not to the point or degree of suppressing Blacks. Blacks are not being held in chains or as slaves, and they have plenty of educational and VOTING opportunity, if they choose to use it.

Well that's decidedly softer tone than before where you stated that "under a racist system, no blacks would be interviewed." Now you are saying it's still racist but far less so than before.

[koko]

AgnosticBoy,


We are getting off track here. I started this thread to address the problem that is keeping Blacks from success. I brought up EDUCATION because many Blacks that have made it out of poverty have had education under their belt.

I don't quite agree that we are getting off track. On the contrary, these are issues that are related and must be addressed by a society that persists in living by mythologies that have no basis in reality.

While it is true that some blacks have made it out of poverty by getting such an education, there are just as many (whether black or white or Latino like me) who went from a working class to poverty class because of education and the debt it caused. This is something that society refuses to acknowledge even though there is plenty of proof to verify what I've just written. Perhaps you and historia have never come across people like that. But I have and definitely not just once. George Floyd who spent three years in college is just another example.

Thus, if this topic was "derailed" at all, it is not because we are dealing with an irrelevant topic. It is because we have exposed a relevant truth that too many people in society refuse to see.

[Mithrae]

We are getting off track here. I started this thread to address the problem that is keeping Blacks from success. I brought up EDUCATION because many Blacks that have made it out of poverty have had education under their belt.

Based on some of the thinking I'm getting here and other places, I can say that Blacks are keeping Blacks from success. We're not in the pre 1960s (pre civil rights era) but yet there are Americans that still have their heads stuck there, refusing to acknowledge any progress and taking responsibility for their OWN actions.

You started the thread to stereotype and slander 'minorities' and especially 'blacks,' by disingenuously pretending that there is only one single facet to America's racial disparities and grossly over-simplifying (and as we see below, outright denying the actual facts regarding) even that one issue.

These studies aren't being done by amateurs in the way in which you apparently think you'd go about it: As Bust Nak pointed out (and you carefully snipped/ignored from your reply), names like Tyrone or Jamal, Jose or Carlos give pretty strong racial indications in themselves without making the resume 'weird' in any way. If the resumes submitted by "Tyrone" are consistently getting significantly fewer callbacks than the identical resumes submitted by "Angus" across a large enough number of jobs, the only possible explanation is that it's the racial implications of those names causing the difference. The results have been confirmed in study after study over the decades; the meta-analysis I cited in post #24 looked at 24 different studies conducted since 1989:

Nowadays, people can find a sociological study that will say anything.

In other words, "I don't like the consistently-replicated results from dozens of studies across three decades demonstrating widespread biases against African Americans, so I'm just going to deny it."

Let's go by the actual job market which better reflect the reality of race and emplyoment.

A new report from the U.S. Department of Education has been released on students who graduated from college during the 2015-16 academic year. The report shows employment status, debt level, graduate enrollment status, and income level of students one year after leaving college. Some of the data is broken down by racial/ethnic group.

One year after earning their bachelor’s degrees, 26.6 percent of African Americans were enrolled in graduate education. For Whites who graduated from college in the 2015-16 academic year, 22.1 percent were enrolled in graduate school.

About 74 percent of all African Americans who graduated from college were employed one year later compared to nearly 83 percent of Whites. Some 13.6 percent of African Americans were both enrolled in graduate programs and were employed compared to 12.5 percent of Whites.

The median income of African American college graduates one year after earning their bachelor’s degree was $36,000. For Whites, the median income was $40,000. This income gap for recent college graduates is far narrower than the overall Black-White income gap. This shows the value of higher education in reducing income equality.

https://www.jbhe.com/2019/07/the-econom ... rs-degree/

That page shows that on average black students compared to white students
- were much more likely to require loans for college (85.9% vs. 66.8% for white students)
- needed to borrow more
- were more likely to work while studying
- required a full year longer to complete their bachelor's degrees
- were less likely to find employment after graduation
- had more than twice the unemployment rate (9% vs. 4.2%; shown in the report itself but not on that page)
- even when employed, were unable to find as well-paying jobs

That seems to even further prove that there are indeed widespread/systemic barriers to success for black (and hispanic) Americans, even going the route of higher education. Higher education helps mitigate the effects of racial discrimination, yes... at least for those who are able to attain it.

[Mithrae]

The fact that Asian and Jewish American communities were once lower class and now have a higher per capita income than (non-Jewish) whites is not my opinion, it's a fact.

Perhaps you can explain how that happened if education is not a solution for systemic racism.

Calling it a solution for systemic racism seems like quite an overstatement. Higher education in useful areas may well remain out of reach of the majority of people to begin with; around one third of Americans have a bachelor's level education. But more to the point, historically the success (or stereotype of success) of Jewish people has ended up becoming and to this day remains a major source or vehicle of anti-Semitism. We know that many people have a tendency to lash out irrationally and often violently when they believe their 'rightful' or traditional place of dominance is being usurped. Even if we were happy to say that black Americans should simply buckle down and put in twice the effort of white Americans in order to close the gap, how confident could you be that it would really be a solution; that there would be no backlash? A tiny minority population such as Jews managing to claw their way to success is one thing - and not without some backlash even then - but does it therefore follow that black Americans could do the same without first addressing the underlying issues still perpetuating the disparities? Seems to me that it is at least as if not more important to uncover and address the attitudes which make it an uphill battle to begin with, to keep reminding people that while we've come a long way there's still a ways to go... and we may not be past the point of a serious backlash yet, the election of birther Trump being perhaps a case in point (and hopefully not a taste of worse to come!).

[historia]

I appreciate the fact you have not personally benefited financially from your education. But there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that your experience is typical of the millions of college graduates in the United States.

Again, the MAJORITY of my classmates had precisely the same experience as I did.

I appreciate the fact that many of your classmates did not personally benefit financially from their education. But there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that their experience is typical of the millions of college graduates in the United States.

Not 'many'. The MAJORITY.

Even if every single person you've ever gone to school with had an identical experience to your own, they still would not amount to more than a tiny fraction of one percent of the total number of college graduates in the United States.

You cannot extrapolate from such a small, non-random sample of people to college graduates as a whole. Therefore, this kind of anecdotal data doesn't even begin to call into question the statistics above.

While it is true that some blacks have made it out of poverty by getting such an education, there are just as many (whether black or white or Latino like me) who went from a working class to poverty class because of education and the debt it caused. This is something that society refuses to acknowledge even though there is plenty of proof to verify what I've just written. Perhaps you and historia have never come across people like that.

Nobody is "refusing to acknowledge" that some people don't benefit financially from a higher education. Clearly, such people can and do exist.

The statistics mentioned above don't say that everyone who has a college degree is guaranteed to make more money. Rather, they say that the average income of people with a college education is higher than those with only a high school education.

Your claim that these statistics are a "blatant lie" and part of some government conspiracy to enrich banks is ridiculous and irresponsible. As Neil deGrasse Tyson has said, "To assert conspiracy is to believe what you want when you are missing data to fully support what you want to believe."

[historia]

The fact that Asian and Jewish American communities were once lower class and now have a higher per capita income than (non-Jewish) whites is not my opinion, it's a fact.

Perhaps you can explain how that happened if education is not a solution for systemic racism.

Calling it a solution for systemic racism seems like quite an overstatement.

I appreciate you taking up Tcg's argument, Mithrae, since apparently he is unable to do so.

But, before I address the rest of your post, perhaps you can answer the question I posed to him: If not through education, how did the Asian and Jewish American communities overcome systemic racism to now have a higher per capita income than (non-Jewish) whites?