Does systemic racism exist?

[otseng]

Institutional racism (also known as systemic racism) is a form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society or an organization. It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues.

"The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Just as many Americans see no signs of “systemic racism” in our society. They feel no personal racial prejudice and point to civil rights legislation and court decisions that outlawed racial discrimination in government and the private economy. Although these Americans recognize that there are a few white supremacists in the country, their number is insignificant and that they are especially rare in our law enforcement agencies. In the rare instance when a law enforcement officer is found to be racist, that officer is normally disciplined and removed from the force.

https://calcoastnews.com/2020/09/the-my ... ic-racism/

I’ve had multiple conversations with white friends and acquaintances over the past several weeks and many of them have told me about their white friends, family members, neighbors and co-workers that don’t believe systemic racism is real. They thinks it’s a hoax, that it is a tool to blame white society for the ills of communities of color. They think we live in a colorblind society and that real racism died in the 1960s.

http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/fea ... at-you-do/

For debate:

Does systemic/institutional racism exist in the US?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #10]

Do these advantages outweigh the disadvantages? And why wouldn't race based disadvantages count as racism to you?

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #10]

Do these advantages outweigh the disadvantages? And why wouldn't race based disadvantages count as racism to you?

For the racists, Blacks have to work harder. The issue is that not every White person is racist. Individual acts of racism does not equal systemic racism. There is no systemic racism.

I wish people would stop thinking as if we're still living in pre-1960s. Quit making excuses and go get an education.

[koko]

Disadvantaged does not mean racism. Blacks have some disadvantages AND advantages over Whites.

Funny thing is, there are some out there who say it is whites who are the victims of reverse discrimination. Well, if systemic racism doesn't exist then reverse discrimination does not exist as well.

[Bust Nak]

The issue is that not every White person is racist. Individual acts of racism does not equal systemic racism. There is no systemic racism.

So now you are trying to tell me that every white person has to be racist in order to count as systemic racism? A non-racist white officer following established police procedure, stop and searching a disproportionate number of black people, isn't an example of systemic racism?

I wish people would stop thinking as if we're still living in pre-1960s. Quit making excuses and go get an education.

Pointing out that racism is still a problem doesn't equate to living in pre-1960. There has been lots of progress since then, but that doesn't mean there is no systemic problems today.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #14]

Like I said before, in a racist system, Blacks could not live successful lives. Many Blacks live successfully, therefore there is no racist system.

You made an absolute claim earlier when you said ALL Blacks are disadvantaged compared to Whites. Will you at least admit that some Blacks are at a better advantage than poor Whites or even uneducated Whites? Why is that so hard to acknowledge?!

In fact not acknowledging that could be considered racist.

[Mithrae]

Like I said before, in a racist system, Blacks could not live successful lives.

So you're saying that prior to 1960s and even prior to the Civil War, America didn't have a racist system? As noted in post #5, some black people lived successful lives even in the antebellum South. If your reasoning leads to such utterly absurd conclusions, there's obviously a problem with your reasoning. That problem has been pointed out numerous times for you in different threads: The fact that some smaller percentage of a systemically disadvantaged group can (and almost inevitably will, given large enough sample sizes and anything short of the most totalitarian oppression) manage to struggle past and achieve a relative measure of success doesn't magically mean that those systemic disadvantages don't exist.

You seem to be simply choosing to deny reason and facts in order to denigrate black people.

You could use the same argument if a certain percentage of black people were simply lynched when they turn 18: "Well some of them are going on to be really successful!" The reality of the several forms of discrimination which I, Bust Nak and even you (inadvertently) have highlighted - in educational funding disparities, in disproportionate effects from punitive policing, in ongoing informal redlining, in business hiring discrimination etc. - is that for a given, equal level of effort and ability a certain percentage of black people are prevented from achieving material prosperity. Pointing towards the percentage who make it past those obstacles seems just as unreasonable and almost as callous as pointing to the percentage who avoided lynching in bygone days.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Mithrae in post #16]
You're not addressing my argument.


You made an absolute claim earlier when you said ALL Blacks are disadvantaged compared to Whites. Will you at least admit that some Blacks are at a better advantage than poor Whites or even uneducated Whites? Why is that so hard to acknowledge?!

To say otherwise is an obvious refusal to acknowledge achievements of Blacks and that thinking or view is racist.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to Mithrae in post #16]
You're not addressing my argument.

I addressed your argument concerning systemic racism, showing (not for the first time) why "Well, some are successful" is fallacious reasoning with the obviously and utterly absurd implications that slavery and Jim Crow weren't systemic racism since some black people were successful then too.

I ignored your picking out a single word from one of Bust Nak's earlier posts, that given systemic racism "all" black people would be disadvantaged compared to white people. I had already commented on a possible clarification in post #5, though Bust Nak's wording could still be defended if it were found that even black people with a privileged upbringing compared to national averages were still disadvantaged compared with white people from the same socio-economic group - that they are disadvantaged when race is the only obvious variable. And in fact, not only is that actually the case but this fact has already been shown to you before: In a totally random system all people would have a 20% chance of reaching the top economic quintile as adults... in a perfect meritocracy with no advantages from inheritance, nepotism, privileged education or the like it would be pretty close to 20%, perhaps marginally higher than that for children with parents in the top quintile... given those real advantages of better education, networks and so on the reality is that white children with parents in the top income quintile have a much higher 41% chance of being in the top quintile as adults... but even with parents in the top income quintile, despite that relative advantage compared to average and poor Americans, black children are still disadvantaged compared to white children in otherwise-comparable circumstances, and actually have a worse than random chance (18%) of being in the top quintile as adults!

Exceeded only by the election and ongoing support for racially-inflammatory birther Donald Trump, that fact of downward economic mobility is probably the second clearest smoking gun for systemic racism that I found in my sceptical enquiries: None of the usual excuses, apologetics and stereotyping of 'black culture,' 'welfare dependency' or your own 'poor education' spiel can even come close to explaining why people would be successful at twice the random rate if they are children of white parents who had achieved success yet still have a worse than random chance if they are children of black parents who had achieved success. It only makes sense if there are some kind of widespread active impediments to black families even remaining well-off from generation to generation.

To say otherwise is an obvious refusal to acknowledge achievements of Blacks and that thinking or view is racist.

If there is any thinking or view which can most unambiguously be considered racist in this thread, it is actively denying reason itself by repeatedly promoting an absurd argument about the success of a few in order to denigrate average black people as just "suppressing themselves" and "making excuses for not even trying."

[koko]

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #14]

Like I said before, in a racist system, Blacks could not live successful lives. Many Blacks live successfully, therefore there is no racist system.

You made an absolute claim earlier when you said ALL Blacks are disadvantaged compared to Whites. Will you at least admit that some Blacks are at a better advantage than poor Whites or even uneducated Whites? Why is that so hard to acknowledge?!

In fact not acknowledging that could be considered racist.

A few Jews managed to succeed despite the terrible oppression created by the Nazis in Germany. Using your "logic" this would mean there was no antiSemitism in Nazi Germany. It is seriously doubtful that most people would agree with you or your line of "reasoning".

[otseng]

Please post your views on the subject. Kindly provide links with proofs to support your position on the issue(s).

I also believe systemic racism exists. Recently, I was surprised to hear from a friend that said systemic racism does not exist. To be honest, that was the first time I've ever heard someone that I know that has made such a statement. However, we did not get any chance to really debate the issue, so want to discuss it more in depth here with everyone else.