Harmony or Justice?

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Purple Knight
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Harmony or Justice?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Is the goal of modern anti-racist culture harmony - to allow all races to live together with as little strife and group conflict as possible - or is its goal justice, in other words, punishing the guilty even at the cost of harmony?

No reasonable person disagrees that white people are racist and getting more racist all the time. If this is because they see the seeking justice against them as some sort of initiatory attack because they (wrongly, of course) do not see themselves as guilty, and they believe it is permissible to "defend" (in their minds, they are the ones being attacked) then conceivably this nasty culture war could have ended by simply forgiving them for their transgressions and not seeking justice, except in provable cases of individual racism (and then, only against the actual perpetrator, as we do for every other crime).

Admittedly this forgiveness suggestion lets people get away with murder, and presumably, in the future, white people would learn from this that they may enslave and mistreat, then simply have their descendants be forgiven for all of it for the sake of harmony.

What say you: Harmony, or Justice?

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #2

Post by Mithrae »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:01 pm No reasonable person disagrees that white people are racist and getting more racist all the time.
Could you explain and justify this comment? With some kind of evidence or hard data, I mean, not vague platitudes or the like?

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:21 am
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:01 pm No reasonable person disagrees that white people are racist and getting more racist all the time.
Could you explain and justify this comment? With some kind of evidence or hard data, I mean, not vague platitudes or the like?
Well, if you state that reasonable people do disagree, I would say show me one.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/04 ... rica-2019/

That wasn't the question, however. The question was, hypothetically, if forgiveness could create more harmony, would you choose forgiveness, or justice?

I'd choose justice personally.

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #4

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:26 pm
Mithrae wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:21 am
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:01 pm No reasonable person disagrees that white people are racist and getting more racist all the time.
Could you explain and justify this comment? With some kind of evidence or hard data, I mean, not vague platitudes or the like?
Well, if you state that reasonable people do disagree, I would say show me one.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/04 ... rica-2019/

That wasn't the question, however. The question was, hypothetically, if forgiveness could create more harmony, would you choose forgiveness, or justice?

I'd choose justice personally.
Harmony seems to be more hopeful way of thinking that justice.
But I've often wondered if people confuse justice with revenge (purposefully or otherwise). Or is there a difference today? If not, should there be a difference? Can we have both at the same time?
If people want 'justice for [insert whatever name you want here]' but they don't trust the judicial system, isn't that, then, revenge they're seeking? And by demanding justice, particularly in public, that, to me, says they don't trust the judicial system.
Does justice have to mean punishment befitting of the crime?
Seems like it's strong words but words with a lot of vague definitions depending on whom is asked.
Justice may be the more 'correct' way to think, but revenge is a ton more fun if we're honest with ourselves. 8-)
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #5

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:59 pmIf people want 'justice for [insert whatever name you want here]' but they don't trust the judicial system, isn't that, then, revenge they're seeking?
The judicial system can indeed be biased. It's not perfect, proof being that simply because it contains people. I'm not a fan of the idea that what government says is automatically right. Certainly people who stood up against the Nazis were wrong.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:59 pmBut I've often wondered if people confuse justice with revenge (purposefully or otherwise). Or is there a difference today? If not, should there be a difference? Can we have both at the same time?
I would say that justice comes from the idea of revenge, and that revenge isn't automatically bad.

You can basically believe one of two binary options:
1) Everyone should be forgiven for everything; nothing should be punished
2) Some things should be punished

Christianity seems to me, to guide people to choice 1. I think choice 1 is terrible.

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:16 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:59 pmIf people want 'justice for [insert whatever name you want here]' but they don't trust the judicial system, isn't that, then, revenge they're seeking?
The judicial system can indeed be biased. It's not perfect, proof being that simply because it contains people. I'm not a fan of the idea that what government says is automatically right. Certainly people who stood up against the Nazis were wrong.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:59 pmBut I've often wondered if people confuse justice with revenge (purposefully or otherwise). Or is there a difference today? If not, should there be a difference? Can we have both at the same time?
I would say that justice comes from the idea of revenge, and that revenge isn't automatically bad.

You can basically believe one of two binary options:
1) Everyone should be forgiven for everything; nothing should be punished
2) Some things should be punished

Christianity seems to me, to guide people to choice 1. I think choice 1 is terrible.
In regards to point 1:
It seems Christianity doesn't punish, God does. And whatever he does is right and just (even if it is allowing his 'beloved' children to spend eternity in damnation for not believing in, and accepting, his son (self?)).
The idea of someone being able to spend their entire life doing bad things and get in to heaven by a deathbed confession is beyond vile to me. But hey that's one of the things that draw people to it I suppose.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #7

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:29 amIn regards to point 1:
It seems Christianity doesn't punish, God does.
Correct, but it tells people that they should forgive everything. I've heard from some people who want to ignore this part of Christianity while being Christians that forgive doesn't necessarily mean don't punish. If I thought they were right I wouldn't have much of a problem with Christianity, but the parable about universal forgiveness comes from a tale about debt in which the master forgave his slave a debt, and the slave ran to another slave who owed him money and demanded it.

This is not "don't hate him, but he still has to pay you the money" - this is absolutely forgiveness as in, he no longer has to pay you the money. This is forgiveness as in, consequences are erased.

...Because you have debts too, and God forgives them.

The idea that we're all wrongdoers, so the person who picks his nose is equal to the murderer, to me is indicative of a bad system. If we're all sinners then the bar is too high. If we were built unable to achieve that standard, then that is the fault of the builder. Imagine deliberately implanting your child with a third 21st chromosome (causes down syndrome) and then telling it that because it doesn't do its calculus homework correctly, it's a sinner and needs forgiveness, which of course you'll give it, if it begs. This is not asking for mere humility; this is sadism.

And if we were made that way because of Eve, then Eve ought to suffer for us, not Jesus. Imagine sticking a knife in someone, saying that having a knife sticking out of you is sinful, and then punishing the one who got stabbed.

Interesting though, that the vast majority of people reject the idea that because one person does something, another is guilty or sinful or deserving of punishment, including Christians. I'm going to be completely fair and admit that I do not reject that idea because I believe punishment is about the victim, but if you're in this thread saying white people shouldn't be punished for the actions of their ancestors, then I say to you that perhaps I should not be punished for the actions of Eve.

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #7]
but it tells people that they should forgive everything.
Does it say they must forgive everything or just forgive? Luckily I don't remember as it's been a minute since I've read any of the bible. And while that differentiation might sound miniscule, that's all it take to create division within a belief system that's based on nothing tactile.
The idea that we're all wrongdoers, so the person who picks his nose is equal to the murderer, to me is indicative of a bad system.
:)
While I get the concept of 'wrong is wrong', I can't say I agree with it. But then again, I'm not an all powerful being (luckily for many of you 8-) )
If we were built unable to achieve that standard, then that is the fault of the builder. Imagine deliberately implanting your child with a third 21st chromosome (causes down syndrome) and then telling it that because it doesn't do its calculus homework correctly, it's a sinner and needs forgiveness, which of course you'll give it, if it begs. This is not asking for mere humility; this is sadism.
THANK YOU. I've been saying that for years. It's good to know others see it for what it is as well!
And if we were made that way because of Eve, then Eve ought to suffer for us, not Jesus.
Preach! It never made sense to have inherited sin. That concept smacks of humanity, not a supreme being that created all that was, is and will be! How anyone can accept that in their deity is dumbfounding to me.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #9

Post by Dimmesdale »

I think that justice, true justice, is in some sense also restorative by nature. I don't believe in mere "tit for tat" - that is not the purpose of justice - to simply gratify our punishing instinct. True justice is purposeful, and to punish simply because you feel like punishing is akin to scratching an itch. Perhaps the itch should be scratched, and it may be temporarily beneficial, but the goal should be to cure the underlying skin condition - which will uproot the itch and the need to scratch altogether.

Unfortunately, people generally are not inclined to look at the big picture and settle on temporary solutions for problems which are on a much grander scale. In a sense, I believe we are all complicit in the crimes of others to some extent. Not because we directly partake in them, but because we have not done our part, or share, in relieving the overall situation and making it better. If society is so dysfunctional, the onus of that is on all of us collectively. The many affect the whole, and vice versa. Justice should not look at only the individual cases (though they are important) but also at the nexus of causes leading to society's overall dysfunction.

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Re: Harmony or Justice?

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

Dimmesdale wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:19 pm I think that justice, true justice, is in some sense also restorative by nature. I don't believe in mere "tit for tat" - that is not the purpose of justice - to simply gratify our punishing instinct. True justice is purposeful, and to punish simply because you feel like punishing is akin to scratching an itch. Perhaps the itch should be scratched, and it may be temporarily beneficial, but the goal should be to cure the underlying skin condition - which will uproot the itch and the need to scratch altogether.

Unfortunately, people generally are not inclined to look at the big picture and settle on temporary solutions for problems which are on a much grander scale. In a sense, I believe we are all complicit in the crimes of others to some extent. Not because we directly partake in them, but because we have not done our part, or share, in relieving the overall situation and making it better. If society is so dysfunctional, the onus of that is on all of us collectively. The many affect the whole, and vice versa. Justice should not look at only the individual cases (though they are important) but also at the nexus of causes leading to society's overall dysfunction.
If the injustice is inequality, then you can, in this specific situation, get rid of the injustice and have restorative justice with a tit-for-tat.

Let's say Ancestor Blue cuts off Ancestor Red's arm, and that lack of an arm is passed down through Lamarckian evolution. So, in the modern world, we have a situation where Reds are getting paid less than Blues because they lack one arm and can't do the same work with the same efficiency in most cases.

This actually can be remedied by cutting off an arm from all the Blues. Equality achieved. Whether it's "worth it" or not is not for me to say; I'm not Mister Morality, so I don't know what we should and should not do. I can't get an ought-to out of an is. But if someone tells me that the first goal is justice then I'll say chop those arms; go for it; absolutely anything for justice.
nobspeople wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:41 pmDoes it say they must forgive everything or just forgive?
The way I read the parable in question is forgive everything.

Jesus tells a tale of a master whose slave owes him money. The slave can't pay, and the master forgives him. The slave promptly goes to another slave who owes him money and shakes him, demanding the full sum.

At the point Jesus basically says, God forgives you, so how dare you be this nasty hypocrite slave and not forgive others?

Since God forgives everything, to me this asks me to forgive everything also.

The difference to me is that God doesn't really personally suffer if someone murders someone else, so of course he can forgive it. But if someone murders my wife she's [expletive deleted] dead. And I have lost her. And she's gone. God hasn't lost her; he may still interact with her. Why would he care?

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