Blood Guilt/Debt

Debate and discussion on racism and related issues

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Dimmesdale
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Blood Guilt/Debt

Post #1

Post by Dimmesdale »

Here's the deal with blood guilt/debt. If it's real it cuts both ways.

If whites are morally indebted to blacks because of the gains had by their hard labor, then the current standard of living which blacks enjoy is also due to the scientific and political contributions of Europeans, who also in their own way sacrificed blood, sweat and tears for their genius, the culture that nurtured them being likewise indispensable to the point they arrived at.

Think about it. The United States, as well as the world, would not be in the position it is now without both cultures, and probably a lot more. A question worth raising: is our current society something we desire to live in more than any other? If so, then I think we should be very, very grateful, and overlook our ancestors' wrongs, in turn focusing on the many boons that have given us so great a civilization, and that whether by hook or crook. But maybe we think our civilization isn't so great? Which is a sentiment I too harbor betimes.

nobspeople
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Re: Blood Guilt/Debt

Post #11

Post by nobspeople »

Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 pm Here's the deal with blood guilt/debt. If it's real it cuts both ways.

If whites are morally indebted to blacks because of the gains had by their hard labor, then the current standard of living which blacks enjoy is also due to the scientific and political contributions of Europeans, who also in their own way sacrificed blood, sweat and tears for their genius, the culture that nurtured them being likewise indispensable to the point they arrived at.

Think about it. The United States, as well as the world, would not be in the position it is now without both cultures, and probably a lot more. A question worth raising: is our current society something we desire to live in more than any other? If so, then I think we should be very, very grateful, and overlook our ancestors' wrongs, in turn focusing on the many boons that have given us so great a civilization, and that whether by hook or crook. But maybe we think our civilization isn't so great? Which is a sentiment I too harbor betimes.
I'm not morally in debt to anyone - especially when it comes to their race, skin/hair/eye color, gender, gender identity, et al.
It's offensive, to me, to think that way.

When we stop differentiating people simple because of their race, skin/hair/eye color, gender, gender identity, et al, and realize 'good' and 'bad' are attributes of humanity, not only with certain races, we will all be better off. Until then, we will continue to live in a culture that pits 'us vs. them'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Mithrae
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Re: Blood Guilt/Debt

Post #12

Post by Mithrae »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:44 pm If you live in North America and are not Native American then, no matter how you or your family got here, you are living on stolen land.

Unless we plan to give essentially the entire country away, any talk about a historical debt seems hollow.
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:06 am I do think all the land should be returned. All of it. Every last bit of it. I know it won't be pleasant but I think it would be right.

You don't even have to accept ancestral guilt for this. You're not literally guilty of anything your ancestors did, or punishable for it, but that doesn't mean the land you hold isn't still stolen.
Land might be a bit different from other stuff that can be owned or stolen, I think.
> In contrast to things which are acquired/owned through production, extraction or cultivation, land itself (along with oceans and atmosphere) cannot be earned in any kind of 'sweat of your brow' sense; it's just there, and always has been
> In contrast to almost all other things, land (along with water and air) is absolutely essential for everyone to live, in terms of habitation and food production
> In contrast to various renewable, recyclable, replaceable or inexhaustible resources, land is more or less finite so that one person or group claiming more good land explicitly deprives others

Claiming exclusive, perpetual ownership of land might be a bit like trying to claim ownership of the sun or moon :? No doubt some people/governments have tried or will try to do even that! But perhaps ideally, land use or land tenure should be merely administered by sovereign bodies, which tends to be the case in modern countries in which 'ownership' of land is still subject to restrictions on use, taxation and potential eminent domain claims.

In that case, violations of treaties or forceful ousting of indigenous sovereign groups might be war crimes etc. themselves, but it wouldn't follow that there's any perpetual right of inheritance for the descendants or nearest relatives of the original 'owners,' since they didn't truly own the land as such. That doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize native title on a case-by-case basis, but I don't think it's as simple as saying that all of this land once 'belonged' to native peoples and was 'stolen' so should all be returned to their heirs. It's a question of which bodies should now have the right to administer use of the land, and under what if any conditions? Arguably a good case could be made for much greater representation of indigenous groups in the land administration aspects of government.

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Purple Knight
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Re: Blood Guilt/Debt

Post #13

Post by Purple Knight »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:36 pmClaiming exclusive, perpetual ownership of land might be a bit like trying to claim ownership of the sun or moon :?
Perpetual seems a bit extreme, but yes, I own my house, and my yard, and you can't take it from me. If you do, you've violated some pretty basic rights and ideally, that should be made up for. (Sadly I don't actually own my house, since the land was stolen, but I mean, if it hadn't been.)
Mithrae wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:36 pmIt's a question of which bodies should now have the right to administer use of the land, and under what if any conditions? Arguably a good case could be made for much greater representation of indigenous groups in the land administration aspects of government.
Well, what would be the result if all the land was returned? They then have the right to oust everyone from their houses but I don't think it would benefit them to do that. They would probably rent the houses to people who currently "own" them and they have every incentive to do that at a price those people can afford. If someone is a vile and open racist, they may oust that person and he ends up living on the street. Good. And essentially you get the result of them governing the land and collecting whatever taxes they feel are reasonable.

If the result is what you want, why would you bother making things more complicated?

It really is simple. Don't steal. If somebody steals, a just government takes it from the thief and returns it. If a day passes or a year passes or three hundred years pass it doesn't change that.

Land exclusionism (the point you bring up about land being limited) is a very serious issue but it's an entirely separate one, and as of now, the world just doesn't recognise that principle, so that's not how the world works for anyone else, and I therefore see no reason to impose that restriction exclusively on Native Americans. If it was how the world worked, and there was a land cap, it would still be pretty simple: Still return all of it and force anybody who goes past the land cap to sell off the excess within a certain grace period.

The only problem is that anyone who has recently sold land is now sitting pretty and anyone who has recently bought land is SOL. Too bad.

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