Racism fatigue

Debate and discussion on racism and related issues

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 100 times
Contact:

Racism fatigue

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

With all of the recent heightened focus on racism, do you think some people are starting to get fatigued by it? Also, are people justified in getting tired of hearing about the race issue?

The reasoning behind my questions is that it seems[ that nothing will ever fix racism completely, but yet we have people who are talking about it as if we've made no progress. I'm not advocating for giving up on the issue, but I'm questioning if keeping it front and center for an indefinite amount of time is a good thing. Would doing so eventually make people tired of hearing about the issue? If too much focus on such negativity as racism can tire out people, what should be done to keep them engaged?

One resolution to this might be to not only make the bad examples front and center, but also show the progress. In other words, bring some positivity into the mix.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 267 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #2

Post by Miles »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:42 pm With all of the recent heightened focus on racism, do you think some people are starting to get fatigued by it? Also, are people justified in getting tired of hearing about the race issue?

The reasoning behind my questions is that it seems[ that nothing will ever fix racism completely, but yet we have people who are talking about it as if we've made no progress. I'm not advocating for giving up on the issue, but I'm questioning if keeping it front and center for an indefinite amount of time is a good thing. Would doing so eventually make people tired of hearing about the issue? If too much focus on such negativity as racism can tire out people, what should be done to keep them engaged?

One resolution to this might be to not only make the bad examples front and center, but also show the progress. In other words, bring some positivity into the mix.
Thinking about this over the last few months, it appears that the only ones who are getting tired of it are racists. Those who are concerned with the untoward effects of racism don't seem to be bothered with the efforts being made to eliminate or reduce it, or news about it.



.

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 100 times
Contact:

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #3

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Miles wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:33 pm Thinking about this over the last few months, it appears that the only ones who are getting tired of it are racists. Those who are concerned with the untoward effects of racism don't seem to be bothered with the efforts being made to eliminate or reduce it, or news about it.
If I were to think about it, I would also say that the racists would definitely get tired of it. The only thing I would add is that it's not only the racist but also even non-racists, which include Whites and even minorities, can get fatigued. The latter group would obviously have different reasons than the former group.

I can honestly say that I'm getting tired of it, but unlike the racists, it's not because I don't want to resolve the issue of racism. I feel that the issue is some times being abused and blown out of proportion. It seems that every cop killing of an African-American is considered an act of racism, or even some less than lethal cases cases are highlighted. We don't need daily reminders of the pre 1960s era in order to resolve this issue. I believe to calm things down we can stop bringing the issue to the forefront while also continuing to work on it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

If your girlfriend cheated on you, is a constructive way of rebuilding the trust gonna involve bringing up the incident every time or keeping it at the forefront? I'd think not.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
HarlanGeorge
Student
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:12 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #4

Post by HarlanGeorge »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Just so that I fully understand your argument. The comparison of a girl cheating on her boyfriend is your example of why society does not need to be reminded about the oppression of an entire race of people. Generations of black people, mistreated and abused for no other reason than the color of their skin? Slavery and segregation are on equal footing in your mind to infidelity within a relationship? Your argument is weak, but your comparison is just insulting. Perhaps you meant well, however the subject matter of this debate deserved more respect than this.

Cudos on your flag though, great concept!
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

ALBERT EINSTEIN

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 100 times
Contact:

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #5

Post by AgnosticBoy »

HarlanGeorge wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:56 pm [Replying to Miles in post #2]

Just so that I fully understand your argument. The comparison of a girl cheating on her boyfriend is your example of why society does not need to be reminded about the oppression of an entire race of people. Generations of black people, mistreated and abused for no other reason than the color of their skin? Slavery and segregation are on equal footing in your mind to infidelity within a relationship? Your argument is weak, but your comparison is just insulting. Perhaps you meant well, however the subject matter of this debate deserved more respect than this.

Cudos on your flag though, great concept!
Of course, racism is more harmful to society than the dishonesty of a girlfriend. The cheating girlfriend was an analogy. But the point I was trying to highlight was that it is hard to forgive and heal when you keep bringing up the past all the time.

On a sidenote, thanks complimenting my flag!
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18764
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1739 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #6

Post by JoeyKnothead »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pm If I were to think about it, I would also say that the racists would definitely get tired of it. The only thing I would add is that it's not only the racist but also even non-racists, which include Whites and even minorities, can get fatigued. The latter group would obviously have different reasons than the former group.
I'd think those experiencing racism are far more tired of it than those who hafta hear em tell of it.
I can honestly say that I'm getting tired of it, but unlike the racists, it's not because I don't want to resolve the issue of racism. I feel that the issue is some times being abused and blown out of proportion. It seems that every cop killing of an African-American is considered an act of racism, or even some less than lethal cases cases are highlighted.
I propose killing folks for no other reason than their race is it a far bigger bit of blowing it out of proportion than your discomfort to have heard tell of it.

When there's hundreds of years of oppression, we shouldn't be us too upset those oppressed'd fuss em at each and every real, or even perceived "slight".
We don't need daily reminders of the pre 1960s era in order to resolve this issue.
Not when we have it occuring in this era.

The mews coverage I've seen seldom mentions the 1960s, but addresses events occcuring within the recent year or two.
I believe to calm things down we can stop bringing the issue to the forefront while also continuing to work on it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Why should the oppressed be expected to "calm down"?
If your girlfriend cheated on you, is a constructive way of rebuilding the trust gonna involve bringing up the incident every time or keeping it at the forefront? I'd think not.
I'd give her the boot, as we should the racists.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 671 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #7

Post by Purple Knight »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:42 pm With all of the recent heightened focus on racism, do you think some people are starting to get fatigued by it?
Of course. And there are people who are (at least, to their own thinking) doing everything they can to fight racism, and not stopping racism. They're told that's no excuse to stop fighting, and it's not, but in answer to the second question, recognising that morale takes a hit when you're fighting what you know is an unwinnable battle is not the same as saying stopping or hiding is justified.

What upsets me is that we can never talk about the goal; we can only ever talk about an endless series of good first steps. It's never a conversation about what would actually fix the problem, only a suggestion of yet another good first step toward fixing the problem. If the problem is that whites are entrenched and enfranchised, and you want a bloody solution to that, then disenfranchise them. Literally take their stuff and distribute it to the disproportionately disenfranchised group. If you won't talk about that because you're a moral greed-o-tron who wants to have it all then maybe you don't deserve to have that happen.

You can't have both retarded levels of individualistic justice and group justice. If we still had historic, long-standing family feuds, individualistic justice wouldn't do the trick and you would ultimately have to punish the family aggressing on the other one. How long would people be content to watch the more aggressive family murder the other into oblivion, sacrifice the actual perpetrator, and laugh that no, they didn't do anything, before this would be figured out and responded to?

You may say I'm racist for this, but I don't believe whites who would support whatever the final solution is (the thing that would actually fix the problem) really deserve to be hounded about how they're not fixing the problem when they're not the ones who are so morally cowardly that they won't tell us what would fix the problem so we can just do that and have it over with. At the point that the actual, final solution is out in broad daylight, then you can say people who won't fight and die for it aren't good allies. But if you won't tell them what to fight for, it's not really their fault that it doesn't get done.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:42 pmThe reasoning behind my questions is that it seems that nothing will ever fix racism completely,
There are things that would fix racism completely. For example, one could not argue that white racism is a problem anymore if there aren't any white people. So, white genocide would fix the problem, as would preventing whites from reproducing. Obviously that's a terribly extreme solution, but disenfranchisement is arguably as good. Maybe there are even less extreme solutions that would fix the problem, but the real problem is that moral cowardice is stopping people from talking about things that would actually fix the problem. If the only solutions that would fix the problem are things POCs would themselves resist out of fear of being impolite or being seen as immoral, it's no longer a white problem: It's a you're-too-morally-cowardly problem. I truly believe if POCs banded together and asked for what they actually needed to fix the problem, they would get it, because good people would fight for them. If some people see them as bad, or greedy, or whatever, oh well. They need to focus on solutions that would fix the problem, not care so much about maintaining the appearance of their towering morality to those whose views are being exposed as the mental output of human trash anyway. They are right, so it doesn't matter if someone doesn't see it that way. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that because racists are vocal, and sometimes very rude, and have a small but determined following who sometimes evince rationality, people who are righteous are cowering away from confronting anyone with real solutions for fear of the racists' reactions.

They need to understand that all the rationality in the world does not justify the immoral. So racists can be the epitome of rationality in truth (I think Jordan Peterson is a great example of this) but at the same time can be completely wrong. The counter to any of those well-presented arguments is the same: No, that's immoral; that's wrong. That's all you need.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:42 pmbut yet we have people who are talking about it as if we've made no progress.
Because we haven't made any progress. Whatever the actual solution is, we haven't progressed any closer to it whatsoever because no one will talk about it. This is how I see it, and yes this is harsh.

POCs: You white people are oppressing us.
Whites: Nope.
Other Whites: Okay, how can we help?
POCs: Take these tweezers and move this pile of sand, one grain at a time, over to there.
Other Whites: Will that fix the problem?
POCs: No. And it won't show your commitment either, because the only reason you're trying to help is that you're trying to profess to virtue you don't have. It might be a good first step, though. Eh, probably not, because you won't do it right; you're only trying to benefit yourself by presenting as virtuous.
Other Whites: We don't want to do that, then.

Yes, it's wrong to stop wanting to help at this point, but it's still understandable. Something can be wrong and understandable at the same time. And this is going to sound like shifting the blame, but it isn't. The blame rests with whites. However, there is a logical problem if not a moral one with expecting that degree of moral perfection from people you know are evil. If you know whites can never be allies in their hearts because their actions are always selfishly motivated, then give them a task that will fix the problem and stop worrying about their motivation. They'll selfishly do it for the same reason they've selfishly done so mush else: They're trying to pass themselves off as virtuous. If fixing the problem actually matters, let them have that even if it's not the case, as long as it fixes the problem.

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 100 times
Contact:

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #8

Post by AgnosticBoy »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:59 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pm If I were to think about it, I would also say that the racists would definitely get tired of it. The only thing I would add is that it's not only the racist but also even non-racists, which include Whites and even minorities, can get fatigued. The latter group would obviously have different reasons than the former group.
I'd think those experiencing racism are far more tired of it than those who hafta hear em tell of it.
I agree that people are definitely justified in feeling tired of experiencing racism. They shouldn't have to experience it at all. But I also question the degree and frequency that we should be hearing about racism. For instance, if we completely got over racism, I would think that we shouldn't be bringing it up all the time. Under that environment, we could bring it up as a point of referece, at most. Some reasons against bringing it up all the time is that it can spark negativity, whether it be in the form of anger, resentment, impeding progress or stirring up old problems, impeding forgiveness, etc.

Now in an environment where there are isolated incidents, which I believe is the environment that we're in now, then I wouldn't say that we shouldn't hear about it at all, but we also don't need to hear about it all the time, esp. when it's always within a negative context. Of course, bring up racism when it happens and in an educational setting. The response should be measured. But what I would be against is reacting to or publicizing every incident as if it's a George Floyd case or as if we're in a pre-1960's era needing massive protest and frequent coverage. The way its covered can create more hate, division, violence, etc. Voting and education would do better than any of those things.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:59 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pmI can honestly say that I'm getting tired of it, but unlike the racists, it's not because I don't want to resolve the issue of racism. I feel that the issue is some times being abused and blown out of proportion. It seems that every cop killing of an African-American is considered an act of racism, or even some less than lethal cases cases are highlighted.
I propose killing folks for no other reason than their race is it a far bigger bit of blowing it out of proportion than your discomfort to have heard tell of it.
When an act is confirmed to be racist, then we can act on it accordingly. But when an act is not confirmed to be racist, but yet we're injecting race into it before the facts are in, or we're reacting to or publicizing the event as if we're still in the pre-1960s era, then that oftentimes incites anger and violence.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:59 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pmWe don't need daily reminders of the pre 1960s era in order to resolve this issue.
Not when we have it occuring in this era.

The mews coverage I've seen seldom mentions the 1960s, but addresses events occcuring within the recent year or two.
I'd expect the reactions to be different given the fact that things are not occurring at the scale that it was pre-1960s. Although you did not make any distinctions, but all should be aware that we're not enslaving African-Americans, we don't have race-based segregated schools (although it seems we segregate based on class). What we have are isolated instances of race-based killings. Despite this fact, we still have people trying to inject race into every issue, into every police killing of a Black person, etc. Again, I'd expect that in pre-1960s.

In fact, if you look at the positive side of race relations, you'd notice that many Blacks are prospering by owning businesses, getting an education, becoming doctors, lawyers, etc. Interracial marriages have been on a steady rise.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:59 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pmI believe to calm things down we can stop bringing the issue to the forefront while also continuing to work on it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Why should the oppressed be expected to "calm down"?
For starters, America as a whole, or even White people as a whole are not oppressing Blacks. Based on this fact, we should calm down when it comes to some of our rhetoric, thinking, perceptions, etc. And let me also bring up forgiveness again. How can you forgive your brother if you can bringing up his wrongs?
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:59 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pmIf your girlfriend cheated on you, is a constructive way of rebuilding the trust gonna involve bringing up the incident every time or keeping it at the forefront? I'd think not.
I'd give her the boot, as we should the racists.
Well we can't boot out Whites, including those who have benefitted off of their White ancestors. Even if we did, then the land should go right back to the Natives. So if we want to live together, as it seems we have to, one good route is forgiveness. Without some forgiveness, progress in race relations will be hindered.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 100 times
Contact:

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #9

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:09 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:42 pmThe reasoning behind my questions is that it seems that nothing will ever fix racism completely,
There are things that would fix racism completely. For example, one could not argue that white racism is a problem anymore if there aren't any white people. So, white genocide would fix the problem, as would preventing whites from reproducing. Obviously that's a terribly extreme solution, but disenfranchisement is arguably as good. Maybe there are even less extreme solutions that would fix the problem, but the real problem is that moral cowardice is stopping people from talking about things that would actually fix the problem. If the only solutions that would fix the problem are things POCs would themselves resist out of fear of being impolite or being seen as immoral, it's no longer a white problem: It's a you're-too-morally-cowardly problem. I truly believe if POCs banded together and asked for what they actually needed to fix the problem, they would get it, because good people would fight for them. If some people see them as bad, or greedy, or whatever, oh well. They need to focus on solutions that would fix the problem, not care so much about maintaining the appearance of their towering morality to those whose views are being exposed as the mental output of human trash anyway. They are right, so it doesn't matter if someone doesn't see it that way. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that because racists are vocal, and sometimes very rude, and have a small but determined following who sometimes evince rationality, people who are righteous are cowering away from confronting anyone with real solutions for fear of the racists' reactions.
I am not sure that racism can be fixed completely because I've seen racism come from different races other than Whites. I don't disagree with any of your good points (all of them were insightful), but I just wanted to add that some things are not done for political reasons. Besides a lack of moral courage, I believe some politicians see the race issue as advantageous to their hold on power so they don't want to see things fixed. They'd probably would rather address some symptoms to appear to be making some progress as opposed to giving us the cure (the real fixes).
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 671 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Racism fatigue

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:59 pmI am not sure that racism can be fixed completely because I've seen racism come from different races other than Whites.
Then kill those races too. I'm not literally arguing for that, just pointing out that yes, there are solutions that would fix the problem. Whether they're too extreme and if there are any better ones is what we should be talking about, rather than saying that nothing will ever fix racism completely.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:59 pmI don't disagree with any of your good points (all of them were insightful), but I just wanted to add that some things are not done for political reasons. Besides a lack of moral courage, I believe some politicians see the race issue as advantageous to their hold on power so they don't want to see things fixed. They'd probably would rather address some symptoms to appear to be making some progress as opposed to giving us the cure (the real fixes).
I agree with this, but you're not going to like how I identify this problem. I consider that politics suffers from the capitalism problem.

Car mechanics have no incentive to fix your car. They have every incentive to make it worse so you keep paying them.

Pharmaceuticals have no incentive to cure diseases. There hasn't been a disease cured since polio. There will always be a treatment, never a cure.

Apple will throttle old phones so you're forced to buy new ones. Why would it bother making a product that works well for more than a year or so?

Capitalism causes overspecialisation and overspecialisation causes the problem. It's not feasible for anyone living in capitalism to be self-sufficient and make everything he needs himself. To compete, one must have a specialised job and make 3000 of product 1 per day instead of one of product 1, one of product 2, and one of product 3, and there will be all your time gone and it still probably won't keep you alive.

Once everyone has a job, everyone has a kill condition (remember, the US has safety nets but is built to simulate pure capitalism which doesn't) if there isn't enough demand for their product to keep them alive. But surely, the added efficiency of being able to make 3000 of something guarantees that, right? Well, no, because they're competing for basic resources against people who have full demand for their 3000 units of something else. There will always be full demand for something, it'll shift around, the people making that thing will flourish and everybody else will die, or at least suffer.

So what's the behaviour that people adopt to stay alive in this system? They stop filling demand and start creating it. Broken window is not a fallacy to the glassmaker breaking windows and thus keeping himself alive. It's tantamount to stealing but the point is that it does keep him alive. If he's a car mechanic you're not going to be able to catch him doing it because you don't have access to what he did to your car, and if you did you might not understand it. And because capitalism turned him into an overspecialised panda bear, he doesn't really have another option.

This isn't a defence of socialism. Socialism is just capitalism with forced sharing. It might superficially fix the problem but not really. The glassmaker doesn't die now, because those who happen to be flourishing just have to share with him, so he might stop breaking windows. Or he might not, because perhaps he doesn't want to be useless. He's still been turned into a panda bear who can only eat from one trough, and that's the underlying issue socialism can't cure.

Post Reply