Whites Go Away?

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Purple Knight
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Whites Go Away?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: If all the white people moved to Mars, would it hurt anyone, even if they remained racist?

I think racists have, if not a good point, a good question, when they continue to wonder why POCs strive to come to majority-white countries only to be discriminated against.

The reason it's not a good point is because the issue is entangled with resources. People will go where resources are despite the political or social system, so you can't claim, as racists try to claim with this question, that POCs are heading into majority-white countries in order to exploit white guilt and gain by that exploitation, and we can't trust the incredulity that nobody would intentionally go where they're so harshly discriminated against and victimised. Because there is no control group of a majority-white area without disproportionate resources and prosperity, one cannot rule out the possibility that POCs come into an environment where they are victimised because they still expect an overall better life, which of course doesn't negate the discrimination or make it okay. People may move to locations with a high murder rate for some benefit that outweighs the risk, but that doesn't mean don't punish the murderers.

Seeking justice isn't suddenly some impropriety just because you are, overall, better off in the environment where the injustice exists. It might seem like looking a gift horse in the mouth, it might seem rude, but it isn't. The analogy is rightly closer to an abusive parent who claims that because they give their child so much, the child is wrong to report a beating. Even if he came from the house next door where he got worse beatings, no. No. Justice doesn't play quid-pro-quo games or ask that people sacrifice it to return favours. Justice is justice.

That's why I'm asking the hypothetical, and disentangling the question from resources. Imagine all the white people just move away, taking no or very few resources with them. They no longer have direct interaction with Earthlings; they are Martians now, and they're isolationist. They have their own media, and they advise Earthlings not to tune in, and in fact they encrypt anything broadcast that Earthlings might tune into, though of course it's possible to descramble if you're really intent on it; we'll say you can watch Martian TV with a black-market box developed for just such a purpose (they're expensive, because you must pay to maintain a satellite relay, so imagine about $250/month). Even if the Martians go full-on Nazi, railing to each other about how bad all the other races are and how great it is to be white, worst case scenario, most racist possible, does it even matter if they're all gone? Or does their existence in that racist state continue to harm those they discriminate against even while completely removed from those other people?

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #11

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:47 pmNonfunctional link.
I'm having trouble getting it to work properly on this site for some reason.

The article title is "Yes My Dear, All White People Are Racists" by Marley K. and the article is on Medium. If you search that it should be the first result.

And if you simply don't consider the other source credible then that's an impasse. Perhaps you're a higher moral authority than I am, and I'm not saying that sarcastically. Robin DiAngelo is one of the foremost authorities on racism. She has written books and sold them; the free market has deigned her credible.

It's an impasse on my side too because I now have the choice between trusting you and trusting someone else, and I'm simply going to trust the professional. That doesn't mean you're wrong; it's just an impasse.

But I don't really suspect that anyone here doubts that white people are racist. I suspect this is all to avoid answering the thread question, which is, so be it, they're racist, but if they're racist away from you, does that still hurt you?

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #12

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:32 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:47 pmNonfunctional link.
I'm having trouble getting it to work properly on this site for some reason.

The article title is "Yes My Dear, All White People Are Racists" by Marley K. and the article is on Medium. If you search that it should be the first result.

And if you simply don't consider the other source credible then that's an impasse. Perhaps you're a higher moral authority than I am, and I'm not saying that sarcastically. Robin DiAngelo is one of the foremost authorities on racism. She has written books and sold them; the free market has deigned her credible.

It's an impasse on my side too because I now have the choice between trusting you and trusting someone else, and I'm simply going to trust the professional. That doesn't mean you're wrong; it's just an impasse.

But I don't really suspect that anyone here doubts that white people are racist. I suspect this is all to avoid answering the thread question, which is, so be it, they're racist, but if they're racist away from you, does that still hurt you?
Of course I'm not saying I'm a higher moral authority than you, but only that any source one is asked to consider must have have some expertise in the subject they expound on before I'll grant them any consideration, and from I read about Ray Carter's background he simply doesn't qualify.


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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #13

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #11]
Robin DiAngelo is one of the foremost authorities on racism. She has written books and sold them; the free market has deigned her credible.
So she's an authority because her opinions are popular?

Bandwagon Fallacy.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #14

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:18 amOf course I'm not saying I'm a higher moral authority than you, but only that any source one is asked to consider must have have some expertise in the subject they expound on before I'll grant them any consideration, and from I read about Ray Carter's background he simply doesn't qualify.
The article is actually critical. Ray Carter is reporting on what Robin DiAngelo said. The only authority you need to accept in him is that he's telling the truth, which is expected of journalists. Robin DiAngelo is the authority on racism. She has a PhD in multicultural education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_DiAngelo

The idea that all whites are racist almost always receives negative publicity and you're not going to find a soundbite of her saying that but that is the thesis.

Again, I shouldn't have to defend this basic idea and I suspect that you're only doing this to avoid answering the question, which is simply if whites are racist, but they do it away from you, does it still hurt you? This is still the question if only some whites are racist, btw, but I shouldn't have to spell out that I'm asking something about the blue sky even if only some parts of it are blue and other parts are fuchsia, emerald, or silver, because at that point it sounds like I'm saying the sky isn't blue.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #15

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #14
The article is actually critical. Ray Carter is reporting on what Robin DiAngelo said. The only authority you need to accept in him is that he's telling the truth, which is expected of journalists. Robin DiAngelo is the authority on racism. She has a PhD in multicultural education.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
---Aristotle

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #16

Post by Purple Knight »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:31 pm"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
---Aristotle
So why do you think I'm always entertaining both positions even though one is clearly false?

I'm not suggesting that if racists are correct deserves - morally - to be entertained, but I do it anyway. So I find myself entertaining disgusting ideas and frankly wishing I didn't, because I feel like I'm catching well-deserved flak for it in the form of people not being willing to debate honestly and just answer the thread question.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #17

Post by Athetotheist »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:39 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:31 pm"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
---Aristotle
So why do you think I'm always entertaining both positions even though one is clearly false?

I'm not suggesting that if racists are correct deserves - morally - to be entertained, but I do it anyway. So I find myself entertaining disgusting ideas and frankly wishing I didn't, because I feel like I'm catching well-deserved flak for it in the form of people not being willing to debate honestly and just answer the thread question.
Maybe people aren't interested in indulging your fantasy of sending all white people to Mars. Maybe people understand that every time you claim that all white people----including those you've never met or even heard of----are racist, you're judging people by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #18

Post by Purple Knight »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:37 pmMaybe people aren't interested in indulging your fantasy of sending all white people to Mars.
It would have been easier to just not post in a topic you aren't interested in than intentionally derail it and refuse to answer.

The basic question was about peoples' racism still hurting you if they're nowhere near you and can't affect you. It's a fair question, not a fantasy.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #19

Post by Athetotheist »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:28 am
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:37 pmMaybe people aren't interested in indulging your fantasy of sending all white people to Mars.
It would have been easier to just not post in a topic you aren't interested in than intentionally derail it and refuse to answer.

The basic question was about peoples' racism still hurting you if they're nowhere near you and can't affect you. It's a fair question, not a fantasy.
If the question is just about "people's" racism, then why didn't you call it "Racists Go Away?" instead of "Whites Go Away?"

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #20

Post by Purple Knight »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:41 amIf the question is just about "people's" racism, then why didn't you call it "Racists Go Away?" instead of "Whites Go Away?"
Well, other than it being my thread to title...

Do you disagree with the claim that people make the claim that all white people are racist? If not, if you understand that people make that claim, do you think every single person making such a claim is deliberately lying or do you think they believe it?

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