Whites Go Away?

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Purple Knight
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Whites Go Away?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: If all the white people moved to Mars, would it hurt anyone, even if they remained racist?

I think racists have, if not a good point, a good question, when they continue to wonder why POCs strive to come to majority-white countries only to be discriminated against.

The reason it's not a good point is because the issue is entangled with resources. People will go where resources are despite the political or social system, so you can't claim, as racists try to claim with this question, that POCs are heading into majority-white countries in order to exploit white guilt and gain by that exploitation, and we can't trust the incredulity that nobody would intentionally go where they're so harshly discriminated against and victimised. Because there is no control group of a majority-white area without disproportionate resources and prosperity, one cannot rule out the possibility that POCs come into an environment where they are victimised because they still expect an overall better life, which of course doesn't negate the discrimination or make it okay. People may move to locations with a high murder rate for some benefit that outweighs the risk, but that doesn't mean don't punish the murderers.

Seeking justice isn't suddenly some impropriety just because you are, overall, better off in the environment where the injustice exists. It might seem like looking a gift horse in the mouth, it might seem rude, but it isn't. The analogy is rightly closer to an abusive parent who claims that because they give their child so much, the child is wrong to report a beating. Even if he came from the house next door where he got worse beatings, no. No. Justice doesn't play quid-pro-quo games or ask that people sacrifice it to return favours. Justice is justice.

That's why I'm asking the hypothetical, and disentangling the question from resources. Imagine all the white people just move away, taking no or very few resources with them. They no longer have direct interaction with Earthlings; they are Martians now, and they're isolationist. They have their own media, and they advise Earthlings not to tune in, and in fact they encrypt anything broadcast that Earthlings might tune into, though of course it's possible to descramble if you're really intent on it; we'll say you can watch Martian TV with a black-market box developed for just such a purpose (they're expensive, because you must pay to maintain a satellite relay, so imagine about $250/month). Even if the Martians go full-on Nazi, railing to each other about how bad all the other races are and how great it is to be white, worst case scenario, most racist possible, does it even matter if they're all gone? Or does their existence in that racist state continue to harm those they discriminate against even while completely removed from those other people?

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #21

Post by Athetotheist »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:57 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:41 amIf the question is just about "people's" racism, then why didn't you call it "Racists Go Away?" instead of "Whites Go Away?"
Well, other than it being my thread to title...

Do you disagree with the claim that people make the claim that all white people are racist? If not, if you understand that people make that claim, do you think every single person making such a claim is deliberately lying or do you think they believe it?
Believing something about someone doesn't make it true.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #22

Post by Purple Knight »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:21 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:57 pm
Well, other than it being my thread to title...

Do you disagree with the claim that people make the claim that all white people are racist? If not, if you understand that people make that claim, do you think every single person making such a claim is deliberately lying or do you think they believe it?
Believing something about someone doesn't make it true.
I didn't ask that. I asked if people believe it, regardless of whether it's true. I think it's true, but I'm not asking if it's true. I'm asking if anyone believes it.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #23

Post by Athetotheist »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:39 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:21 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:57 pm
Well, other than it being my thread to title...

Do you disagree with the claim that people make the claim that all white people are racist? If not, if you understand that people make that claim, do you think every single person making such a claim is deliberately lying or do you think they believe it?
Believing something about someone doesn't make it true.
I didn't ask that. I asked if people believe it, regardless of whether it's true. I think it's true, but I'm not asking if it's true. I'm asking if anyone believes it.
Then maybe you should start a poll.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #24

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
If all the white people moved to Mars, would it hurt anyone, even if they remained racist?
Several billion people on the planet surely someone would be hurt.
I think everyone is racist in some fashion. Riding the world of a certain set of people won't erase racism IMO.
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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #25

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:42 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
If all the white people moved to Mars, would it hurt anyone, even if they remained racist?
Several billion people on the planet surely someone would be hurt.
I think everyone is racist in some fashion. Riding the world of a certain set of people won't erase racism IMO.
What I'm getting at is that we may have reached a point where the kind of harm racism produces will not be eliminated until the guilty parties are removed from the offended parties.

It's the same kind of harm (though to a different degree) as when someone hits you, versus when they have merely bumped into you at the same level of force. You won't get a physical bruise either way, and if it was an accident we tend to just move on with our lives, but it still creates harm if the act was deliberate - a harm we are all likely to object to. This harm has nothing to do with whether the act was deliberate, only with whether or not the one you bumped into sees it as deliberate.

Sometimes we bump into one another. In this analogy, sometimes, you don't get the job. It might suck, but if no one is sitting there discriminating against you, it's just life, we got bumped, we move on.

Whites have simply been so guilty of deliberately harming others for so long that even if they all reformed, no one would believe it, and rightly so. And at that point, why bother? It's easy to see why this might be an impasse, and I honestly think at the point we've come to, we might need a few generations of separation so wounds can heal. I don't think forced diversity heals anything. I think in a diverse world that grew out of an oppressive world, you're going to have people bumping into one another, thinking (rightly, I stress this) that it was deliberate, and everyone giving up on harmony because it clearly isn't possible.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #26

Post by otseng »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:32 pm I'm having trouble getting it to work properly on this site for some reason.

The article title is "Yes My Dear, All White People Are Racists" by Marley K. and the article is on Medium. If you search that it should be the first result.
There is a limit of how many times it can be accessed per user. I'm quoting it here:
Yes My Dear, All White People Are Racists

First, learn what racism is, and what it’s not. I need White people to understand that all White people are racist.

Admit it, and let’s move onto the business of repairing and healing the country. We can’t do it without you.

Yes my dears, all White people are racists. All. Of. Them.

Here is where you stop to cry, clutch your pearls, rant and rave aloud to tell me how wrong I am, and to tell me not all White people. I’m doing reverse racism (there’s no such thing as reverse racism), and you’re ready to do tit for tat with me and every Black person on the internet (because you’re too afraid to say this nonsense in person) on how terrible Black people are. I have [fill in the blank White person savior activity here], so I know I’m not racist. I don’t say the N-word; I go to church with Black people, and I even go to lunch with the Black lady/guy from my job. I have a biracial child. I date Black women/men.

My husband/wife is Black. I work in an all Black [fill in the blank setting]. I am not racist. I’m liberal. I voted for Hillary. I use #BlackLivesMatter hashtags. I have a Black friend (that I never talk to about race).

I know. I’ve heard it all already, honey. I know. You are a product of your racist American environment.

You are racist love, but it’s okay to admit it. I’m ready for you to admit it so that we can move on to bigger things. You denying the obvious stalls the long road to healing. Take a moment to sit with this new/old revelation. Your racism is a product of nurturing and nature. Own it.

You can’t help you were born to racist parents, who were raised in a White Supremacist system.

You can help with tearing down the racist systems and structures that support you and kill me and my sons based on flawed science crafted by flawed White and European people. White people admitting they are racist is necessary for those individuals desiring to do something right now.

If you can’t do that, I can’t rock with you. I can’t walk with you. I can’t talk with you. I can’t help you. And I damned sure can’t trust you.

Racism got us into this mess. Anti-racism is the only thing that will get us out of it. It’s been 400-years. Y’all can’t keep running from yourselves.

All White people are racist and the fact that you need a special out like a “Not All White People” label is disheartening because it says to me you are racist, but you’re in denial about it. To me this kind of white person is most dangerous kind of White people I know and I just don’t have time to play games with you all anymore. They are so busy dodging responsibility they can’t see the obvious racism in needing an exception to the rule. There are no exceptions to racism and White people. You’re born into that gang.

Now is the time to show that Black lives matter. It’s time to show us any lives matter besides a White one.

Either you’re for Black people or against. It’s just that simple. Being caught up in what I call you by your rightful name instead of being aware of the reasons I called you, your name is between you and your maker.

I’m trying to help White people help us by showing them how White Supremacy and racism works when you’re not White. So don’t talk, just listen. You can talk at the end of this.

I need you White and White passing people to understand that a White person or non-Black person of color unwilling to admit their inherent anti-Blackness is not an ally, but an enemy. You cannot fix what is broken unless you admit to yourselves you’ve been raised and taught by racist parents, who raised you in racist systems and white spaces to give you the best chance of making it in a White world because they knew how bad it was being Black.

Period. I don’t care where you are in the world, everyone knows they don’t want to be Black because White people have taught the world Black people are bad despite them needing us to survive. White people couldn’t even go to the moon without a Black woman. We have proven time and time again our worth, and White people have dismissed us and let us down because they are racist, having been taught that Black people were inferior.

But no more.

White folks cannot and will not stop being a part of systems that were set up to make life easy and better for them and hard and bad for Black people. If you don’t admit that all White people are racist, this will never change. Just read our first Constitution. If America and White men weren’t racist, they would’ve never stipulated we Black folks were property and not people. The Constitution stipulated White men had rights and that Black men had none. Own it.

Own that White people have spent the last 400-years maintaining the status quo by doing the same things their ancestors did to maintain getting the same results the ancestors did. All White people are racists and/or act racistly to maintain their White interests. We all know you do it because we see how you live, work, play, vote, and engage on social media. You’re not fooling anyone but yourselves for denying this.

All White people are racist because racism starts at home. And even if you’re not raised racist, America’s systems make you choose sides. It’s always easier and more comfortable siding with racist.

Own it. Racism starts at home. Racism helps grooms the person you grow up to become.

This means these White people must realize their parents and grandparents are likely racist. This is the reason I believe most White people and POC can’t help that they are racist. They were born to become racist and taught to be racist.

Being racist to me is like a generational curse. It’s like being born with an addiction gene or some other genetic defect that alters your entire life until you learn to live with it and control it.

Racism is also like an addiction. It makes you addicted to power, money, social status, and a system that favors you. It’s like having a lifetime platinum membership to the all White country club. The drinks are cold, the seats are comfortable; the food is wonderful, and the help is Black and Brown except the White girl at the door who greets you. Racism improves your White life.

But know since the day you were born that your Whiteness comes at the expense of my Blackness, because that’s how the system is set up. Own it so that we can move forward.

We don’t need or want your kind of White people around us who cannot admit they are racist because they are incapable of dealing with the collateral damage of the moment. That’s not the White freedom fighters we want on our teams. Admit it so we can go on.

White people and non-White POC living as White who cannot acknowledge these truths are saying they don’t want to relinquish the power and privileges assigned to their places in the social/racial order set by White Supremacy. Embracing that means that you also embrace mistreating me, taking from me and my children, separating me, and making my pathways more difficult so that you may have pathways that are smooth paved with gold, or titanium.

Racism makes life easy for White people. It’s not right.

Although you may be racist, you don’t have to stay that way. No one has to be racist. Racist is a choice. It’s a choice to not treat all people good, well, and respectful. It’s a choice to center Whiteness, which has always been the default. Racist make a conscious decision to ignore the cries and petitions of Black people and to believe. White people make a choice to believe Black people over White people. Racism is in everything and you can’t see the racism in those things because you are racist.

You can be racist and marry or have sex with a Black person or person of color. Please understand that racism has nothing to do with sex and marriage. People can compartmentalize their bullshit with the best of them. That’s baggage the White part of the relationship will need to work out.

All White people are racist.

Just admit it so you can grow. We need people learning and growing, not willfully ignorant bags of scorching air. You need to get this lesson and get it quickly, because we’re on the Titanic sinking right now. We can’t get out of this mess without White people.

Understand that not all White people will be willing or able to relinquish their White power and privileges — and that’s okay. We already know there will be causalities in this war against racism, unfairness, injustice, and inequality. Causalities like breakups and losing friends, even your parents. Some people love hating more than they love loving. And that’s okay. It’s a choice, one that we all have to deal with one day.

I lost a lot of White friends and associates over the past few years. It’s nothing new. Most Blacks and people of color have been stabbed in the back or sabotage by quite a few White people. But occasionally a few tricked us. We allowed White people into our inter sanctums. We broke bread with them. We laughed. We shared personal stories with you.

But then Obama and Trump happened, and White folks lost their minds.

Trump getting elected has been a green light for a lot of White people to be racist in public. Just go to Twitter to see how racist White people and people of color have become because they believe they are losing something. I’m tired of my soon to be former friends being disrespectful to me. They are racist to my face, as if they don’t care about my feelings at all.

I am deleting all my White Facebook friends because they were so racist. It was painful for me, but not as painful as enduring their racism they spew day in and day out. We had some good times. They were good people, or so I thought. What I learned about what they really thought of me was that I wasn’t like the rest of the Blacks they hated.

What they don’t realize is I’m the epitome of the Black they hate. I just code switch so they can’t see it. There is no vacation from Blackness. You either deny it, hide it, or don’t forsake it.

I stayed in a relationship with my racist White friends for too long. They did not value or respect me. In a lot of those relationships, I was their one Black friend. I knew when I was the only one that really meant, but I tried to ignore the obvious, waiting for a glimmer of hope.

Anyone who has one Black friend can’t really be trusted. I’m just saying.

Thankfully, I’ve found new good White people who get the racism thing. They are good people, people that I can trust, and I don’t have to guess what side of the fence they are on.

Once you admit you’re racist and you’re on the anti-racism bus now, you’ll experience losses too. Change is wonderful.

Those losses will be your friends, spouses, lovers, relatives, and for some of you even your parents. It will be painful and heartbreaking, but that’s how we feel watching White people choose unjust White people and inhumanity over saving Black people are justice.

We are at a crossroads with this race thing, and you have to decide which side of the fence you will be on White people.

Are you racist or not?

Do you believe in right or do you believe in wrong?

Do you believe in justice for all, or do you believe in justice for Whites?

Do you believe that White people must be centered and first, or do you believe we should address each racial group according to their grievances and losses as it relates to racism and White Supremacy? Do you think we can just move on with no reparations for the problems White people have created?

It’s not that hard. It’s really not that hard.

Think long and hard before you answer because there really is no coming back from this if you make the wrong decision. We don’t have time to wait. We have no more time to waste carrying dead weight. None.

Are you racist or are you still going to remain in denial about it?

The choice is all yours, just be ready for the public consequences that come with that decision. Black folks aren’t tolerating racism anymore. I know I’m not. I’m not being nice to White people so they can remain ignorant and racist. I don’t care about their White comfort because their will comfort is the source of my discomfort. White people need to be uncomfortable in order to see how their entire existence relies on the belittling, degradation, and death of Black people.

Blacks will protest until we get change. There are plenty ready to clash with the police. Others ready to burn the country down to the ground. To them, they have absolutely nothing to lose. As far as these people are concerned. They’ve lost and it’s all because of White people.

Black are demanding you raise better people and be better people so that we can life better — together. They are tired of being harassed by White women and killed by White men.

To accomplish this, White people will need to make some sacrifices. Before you can join this anti-racism movement, you need to understand the kinds of sacrifices necessary to make things fair. John Gorman wrote a phenomenal piece that I can’t stop browsing titled, “90 days, 400 years, The Multiple Organ Failure of the American Experiment.” Read it. Read it more than once. Then meditate on his words before you choose which side of the fence you want to be on. It’s not for the faint of heart.

To give up White Supremacy means you’re willing to share, play fair, obey rules, and love one another like you love yourselves.

If you can’t see and understand your own racism, you’re not ready for this anti-racism life. The America they have taught you about was a lie. That old country with the bad wig on is dying. It’s taking its last breaths. You helped kill what it was. It’s dead now, it’s time to build a new nation.

Are you down for that?

Are you ready to help rebuild, or are you going to be the White person who keeps something dead with no signs of life on life support? If you are, we don’t need you. You’re not ready to move forward, and that is okay.

Please know we Black folks aren’t looking for revenge on White people. We just want peace and justice. This isn’t about comeuppance. If you are the type of White person who consciously or subconsciously believes slaves now want to become the master after they are freed, you are racist. You are the epitome of our broken system. White people, you need to decolonize your mind.

Black people aren’t looking to harm White people. Black people just want to protect our own people. We want our family and friends to be safe and we want White people to treat us as humans, see us when we are hurting, help us when they break us, and heal us so that we can be whole again.

We don’t want everything White people. Please stop thinking so selfishly.

Black people just want some things you have access to in abundance in order to survive and live better. Things you’ve had for much longer than we have. Things that will make the playing field level. Like the power to govern ourselves.

Trust me, White people, we don’t want to compete with White folks. White people are the ones who keep making everything a competition. We just want to live and free from your glare, free from your rule, free from White terror, and free from racism. The cost of being Black in America is too damned high and we need a break.

White people you really need to evaluate yourselves, your attitudes about humanity, and reconsider who and what you support. It can be revealing. Some things you support are very racist. You must make better, more thoughtful choices.

If you read my work, you know I’ve always believed that all White people are racist. I don’t say it to be ugly; I say it because it’s the truth. White people don’t want to admit they are racist, so they spend time and energy arguing and deflecting instead of learning about what racism is and investing in anti-racism work.

White people admitting they are racist will be the only way they’re able to decolonize their minds.

Just admit it to yourselves. The rest of the world already knows it. Nothing you say or do can make any sense until you make this admission.

In the same way admitting you are an alcoholic means you’re ready to address substance abuse problems, admitting you are racist means you’re ready to begin the anti-racism journey. No one can help you until you finally admit you have a problem. While the impact of racism maybe everyone’s problem, the decision to be racist is an individual choice, one White and non-Black POC must decide on. Just say it, honey. Admit you are a racist and that you have been a part of the number one problem America has so that we can move forward.

Remember, being racist is not necessarily your fault. Choosing to stay racist is. All eyes are on you now, White people.

It took Black people, Native Americans, the Hispanic/Latinx Coalition, Witches, Wiccans, children, Germans, Europeans, and darned New Zealanders from the other side of the world to get White people to see White people are racist and that Black lives did not matter to them. Finally.

Now, let’s move forward.

The only words that matter to me right now are the ones acknowledging White people are racist, and those that denounce racism. Anything else is wasted energy, and ya’ll folks have wasted enough time and energy being in denial about this thing.

Say it now and be proud. You cannot be anti racist until you finally admit that you are racist.

Marley K in Quarantine 2020
Yes My Dear, All White People Are Racists

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #27

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to otseng in post #26]
For those who would defend that article:

First thing the author says is "First, learn what racism is, and what it’s not..." then fails to explain what what racism is, and what it’s not. She certainly wasn't using the standard definition of racism re: prejudice or discrimination based on race. I am guessing she meant something along the lines of benefiting from systematic racism.

She says there’s no such thing as reverse racism. Okay, but there is just plain old racism, judging people by their race, by calling all white racist, is racist, as per the usual definition. Are the ones who are trying to take down the status quo, believe in right, believe in dealing with racial group according to their grievances, ready to hand out reparations, sharing, playing fair, obeying rules, and loving one another like they love themselves, still racist?

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #28

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #25]
What I'm getting at is that we may have reached a point where the kind of harm racism produces will not be eliminated until the guilty parties are removed from the offended parties.
I don't think racism will ever be eliminated as long as humanity lives. Best humans can hope for is not acting on it.
Whites have simply been so guilty of deliberately harming others for so long that even if they all reformed, no one would believe it, and rightly so.
Agreed. Like when someone says 'Prove bigfoot to me with a great photo!' and when they're presented with it, they say 'It's fake!'
we might need a few generations of separation so wounds can heal.
I don't think any total healing will ever take place. People (for some reason) like to be mad/upset/offended in general. Until that 'issue' is rectified, no total healing will ever take place. I guess the question then, is, how much healing will be enough?
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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #29

Post by Purple Knight »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:09 amAre the ones who are trying to take down the status quo, believe in right, believe in dealing with racial group according to their grievances, ready to hand out reparations, sharing, playing fair, obeying rules, and loving one another like they love themselves, still racist?
Yes, because more is needed. And also because even if you think you're sharing, playing fair, and treating others equally, as a white, you're not. You're always affected by the system of white power, and by your own biases, which are unconscious.

So you have 6, and your reasoning, conscious brain gives 3 to the Black guy and 3 to the white guy, while your left hand, without your knowledge, takes 2 away from the Black guy, giving 1 back to you and 1 extra to the other white guy. By the time he's angry and shouting that he only got 1, you're rolling your eyes because you know you gave him equal and the other white guy is nodding at you saying, yes, we each got 3, that was fair, because he accepted the extra with his subconscious left hand and didn't notice either.

This is, in part, why I think separation might be the only answer. People who bend over backwards to help get discouraged and angry when it's never enough, even if it really isn't enough. No matter how hard they try to fight their subconscious, no matter how much they account for it, the subconscious still prevails. Most whites at least try not to be racist. They try, and 100% of them fall short and fail. This is telling to me that simply continuing to expect them to just be better, just try harder, isn't going to work. Give me one success they can imitate, before I will say, here, do this, it's possible.

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Re: Whites Go Away?

Post #30

Post by Bust Nak »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:09 pm So you have 6, and your reasoning, conscious brain gives 3 to the Black guy and 3 to the white guy, while your left hand, without your knowledge, takes 2 away from the Black guy, giving 1 back to you and 1 extra to the other white guy. By the time he's angry and shouting that he only got 1, you're rolling your eyes because you know you gave him equal and the other white guy is nodding at you saying, yes, we each got 3, that was fair, because he accepted the extra with his subconscious left hand and didn't notice either.
That's why I mentioned reparations, i.e. consciously giving 5 to the Black guy and 1 to the white guy, while the left hand unconsciously takes 2 back, leaving him with 3, 2 the the white guy and 1 left for myself. Is that still racist?
This is, in part, why I think separation might be the only answer. People who bend over backwards to help get discouraged and angry when it's never enough, even if it really isn't enough. No matter how hard they try to fight their subconscious, no matter how much they account for it, the subconscious still prevails.
Does it though? We are certainly a lot more than beasts that runs on intuition. While we are here, lets say the Black guy with 3, now goes to give 1 to another white guy, gives 1 to another Black guy, unconsciously takes back the 1 from the white guy, is that racist? Racism define on those lines of subconscious bias applies to literally human, as we are all wired by our biology to build closely nit in-groups. If that's how racism is defined, then it's amiss for the author of the article to paint it as a white people's problem, she should have mentioned that, yes you, the Black slaves who were exploited and all their Black descendant, are just as racist as the slavers. (This leads me to believe the author was talking less about subconscious bias and more about benefitting from systemic racism.)
Most whites at least try not to be racist. They try, and 100% of them fall short and fail. This is telling to me that simply continuing to expect them to just be better, just try harder, isn't going to work. Give me one success they can imitate, before I will say, here, do this, it's possible.
Along the same lines, if racism is about subconscious bias, then 100% of humanity fall short and fail. We don't need a society of people who succeed in removing themselves from subconscious bias for a fair and equal society. A society of those who try and fail is enough for that.

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