Do evangelicals and other Christians really believe that a habitual liar, serial adulterer, and defaulter on contracts, who tears children from their parents and has them put in cages, can lead them toward the Kingdom of Heaven? Is that what Jesus would do?
A Question for Evangelicals.
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- Savant
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #11Heart surgery is not a one person job, being a doody head affects how well their team mate works and in turn the final product or service. But if we can absolutely isolate job performance from character flaw, then job performance should be the determining factor.Clownboat wrote: If someone is a total doody head of a person, but a qualified heart surgeon, should you not use their services? Pretend the doody head is better qualified if you would.
Like I tell my employees. You don't have to like each other, but you do have to work with each other.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #12You're actually presupposing your conclusion here, that being that it's permissible to chuck the one with the better skill at the task itself because he's a doody-head.Bust Nak wrote:Heart surgery is not a one person job, being a doody head affects how well their team mate works and in turn the final product or service. But if we can absolutely isolate job performance from character flaw, then job performance should be the determining factor.
It's subtle, but I caught it.
You're assuming that this fellow's team-mates are going to refuse to hand him a scalpel because they don't like how he asked, and that that's perfectly okay, and that the people who react that way absolutely belong on that team.
The "doody-head" is me. It's been me all my life. I don't insult people, I am extremely nice to customers and I've never gotten a poor review from one, but co-workers never, ever like me. No matter what I say to them, they'll find some way to twist it into something offensive.
I kid you not, I told this joke:
Q: Why doesn't Kool-Aid Man play baseball with the Pillsbury Dough Boy anymore?
A: Because Kool-Aid Man is tired of always being the pitcher, and Dough Boy is tired of always being the batter.
...And I lost a job from that.
If I don't say anything at all, that's worse. If I keep it to simple responses, as polite as possible "Yes, I'll do that," "Thank you for telling me that," I'll still be the rude one, because I don't socialise.
No one is trying to be mean. No one is trying to be rude. Everyone just wants to keep their job, and the social butterflies won't have that. The social butterflies demand that about 70% of the energy that should go into working be devoted to establishing chimpanzee pecking order.
So when you say the surgeon is the one causing that reaction in his team, I see one person trying to do his job, and the rest refusing to hand him a scalpel because he missed some keyword like please or they didn't like his tone, and they would rather the patient die on the operating table than lose an opportunity to "teach" someone courtesy.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #13That is my conclusion, but how is it my presupposition?Purple Knight wrote: You're actually presupposing your conclusion here, that being that it's permissible to chuck the one with the better skill at the task itself because he's a doody-head.
I do assume that but it's a different claim to my conclusion.You're assuming that this fellow's team-mates are going to refuse to hand him a scalpel because they don't like how he asked, and that that's perfectly okay, and that the people who react that way absolutely belong on that team.
That sounded like your co-workers are the doody-heads.The "doody-head" is me. It's been me all my life. I don't insult people, I am extremely nice to customers and I've never gotten a poor review from one, but co-workers never, ever like me. No matter what I say to them, they'll find some way to twist it into something offensive.
And you thought the problem was on your end?Q: Why doesn't Kool-Aid Man play baseball with the Pillsbury Dough Boy anymore?
A: Because Kool-Aid Man is tired of always being the pitcher, and Dough Boy is tired of always being the batter.
...And I lost a job from that.
Either you are less polite than you thought, or your co-workers are the problem. "Establishing chimpanzee pecking order" makes a hostile workplace.If I don't say anything at all, that's worse. If I keep it to simple responses, as polite as possible "Yes, I'll do that," "Thank you for telling me that," I'll still be the rude one, because I don't socialise.
No one is trying to be mean. No one is trying to be rude. Everyone just wants to keep their job, and the social butterflies won't have that. The social butterflies demand that about 70% of the energy that should go into working be devoted to establishing chimpanzee pecking order.
Or the surgeon is actually the one causing a legit reaction in his team?So when you say the surgeon is the one causing that reaction in his team, I see one person trying to do his job, and the rest refusing to hand him a scalpel because he missed some keyword like please or they didn't like his tone, and they would rather the patient die on the operating table than lose an opportunity to "teach" someone courtesy.
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Post #14
Excuse me folks, but the discussion is not about a competent doody-head, it is about an obviously incompetent doody-head. Signs of his incompetence are his penchant for hiring and firing staff at an unprecedented rate, an unusual number of former staff in prison, his bankruptcies, his cheating of contractors, and his SLAP lawsuits to drive up the attorney costs for opponents who aren't financed by Russian loans through Deutsche Bank.
Of course this is a hypothetical person and not referring to any real individual. I mean, who could seriously support for public office a lying, cheating scoundrel who can scarcely read?
And this is about his moral character and why Evangelicals would support him so enthusiastically.
Of course this is a hypothetical person and not referring to any real individual. I mean, who could seriously support for public office a lying, cheating scoundrel who can scarcely read?
And this is about his moral character and why Evangelicals would support him so enthusiastically.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #15I see them as the same premise: Teamwork (otherwise known as popularity) > Skill.Bust Nak wrote:That is my conclusion, but how is it my presupposition?Purple Knight wrote: You're actually presupposing your conclusion here, that being that it's permissible to chuck the one with the better skill at the task itself because he's a doody-head.
I do assume that but it's a different claim to my conclusion.You're assuming that this fellow's team-mates are going to refuse to hand him a scalpel because they don't like how he asked, and that that's perfectly okay, and that the people who react that way absolutely belong on that team.
If the surgeon is somehow rude, and the rest of the team refuse to hand him the scalpel because they don't see him as being polite enough, you're presupposing that that's his problem and not theirs.
For a lack of teamwork to be his failing, it has to be his fault that they don't hand him the scalpel, and not theirs. For their own actions not to be their fault, you do have to assume your conclusion: Teamwork > Skill.
If you don't assume that conclusion, you can just stock the operating room with people like me who don't give a flying bacon bit about anyone's tone or how offensive they can shoehorn something he said into being, and they just do their jobs, and they have absolutely no interest in going over everything he says with a fine-toothed comb for mistakes they can leverage into social advantage.
There are more of me than there are of those other kind anyway.
I was trying to isolate that issue, and it's proving to be a complex one.Gracchus wrote: Excuse me folks, but the discussion is not about a competent doody-head, it is about an obviously incompetent doody-head.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #16[Replying to post 15 by Purple Knight]
Gracchus wrote: "Excuse me folks, but the discussion is not about a competent doody-head, it is about an obviously incompetent doody-head."
Purple Knight responded: "I was trying to isolate that issue, and it's proving to be a complex one."
Complex?! Oh my! I'm getting popcorn!
Gracchus wrote: "Excuse me folks, but the discussion is not about a competent doody-head, it is about an obviously incompetent doody-head."
Purple Knight responded: "I was trying to isolate that issue, and it's proving to be a complex one."
Complex?! Oh my! I'm getting popcorn!
Last edited by Gracchus on Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #17The best would earn the most and play the most golf!Gracchus wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Wootah]
Well, I might inquire as to a heart surgeon's training and experience. I might ask how much of his time is actually practicing surgery and how much playing golf.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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Post #18
You haven't made your case and ignore the obvious sign of competence - he made it to president.Gracchus wrote: Excuse me folks, but the discussion is not about a competent doody-head, it is about an obviously incompetent doody-head. Signs of his incompetence are his penchant for hiring and firing staff at an unprecedented rate, an unusual number of former staff in prison, his bankruptcies, his cheating of contractors, and his SLAP lawsuits to drive up the attorney costs for opponents who aren't financed by Russian loans through Deutsche Bank.
Of course this is a hypothetical person and not referring to any real individual. I mean, who could seriously support for public office a lying, cheating scoundrel who can scarcely read?
And this is about his moral character and why Evangelicals would support him so enthusiastically.
Mod hat - no more doddy head comments please from anyone.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #19Team work is decidedly a different thing to popularity. Results > Skill. Team work is just a good way of getting results.Purple Knight wrote: I see them as the same premise: Teamwork (otherwise known as popularity) > Skill.
That's not an assumption is it? The premise is that the surgeon is rude, that is his problem. I don't think I have to assume teamwork > skill to conclude that being rude is his problem.If the surgeon is somehow rude, and the rest of the team refuse to hand him the scalpel because they don't see him as being polite enough, you're presupposing that that's his problem and not theirs.
That's one way of fixing the problem, but that doesn't change the source of where the problem came from - a guy being rude enough that his team refuses to work with him.If you don't assume that conclusion, you can just stock the operating room with people like me who don't give a flying bacon bit about anyone's tone or how offensive they can shoehorn something he said into being, and they just do their jobs, and they have absolutely no interest in going over everything he says with a fine-toothed comb for mistakes they can leverage into social advantage.
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Re: A Question for Evangelicals.
Post #20Speaking hypothetically as the employer...Team work is decidedly a different thing to popularity. Results > Skill. Team work is just a good way of getting results.
You don't have to like your fellow employees, but you have to work with them. If you are not able to do so, then you are not able to fulfill that part of your job.
Again, speaking hypothetically as the employer...That's not an assumption is it? The premise is that the surgeon is rude, that is his problem. I don't think I have to assume teamwork > skill to conclude that being rude is his problem.
You don't have to like your fellow employees, but you have to work with them. If you are not able to do so, then you are not able to fulfill that part of your job. Even if you call this person names!
Hypothetical employer again...That's one way of fixing the problem, but that doesn't change the source of where the problem came from - a guy being rude enough that his team refuses to work with him.
You are not able to work with your fellow worker. For this reason I must terminate your employment.
There is a life lesson to be learned though. You cannot change others, only yourself. Therefore to blame others is a fool's errand and not one I'm willing to continue to pay you for. I would recommend some self-reflection and wish you the best of luck going forward.
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I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb