Paradise on Earth

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #1331

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1327 by tam]

I think we both know I was using the term Christian to refer to approved baptised disciples of Christ. Evidently before the name "Christian" was adopted in Antioch the disciples where "Christian" disciples. Are you suggesting that it is impossible to be an approved baptised disciple of Christ but not have the right to call oneself a Christian? Is this another of your Pharasitical rules?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #1332

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1327 by tam]

I think we both know I was using the term Christian to refer to approved baptised disciples of Christ.


I'm not sure what this has to do with my point.

Regardless, baptism with physical water does not make a person Christian. Baptism with holy spirit (the water of life) makes a person Christian (an anointed one).

Evidently before the name "Christian" was adopted in Antioch the disciples where "Christian" disciples. Are you suggesting that it is impossible to be an approved baptised disciple of Christ but not have the right to call oneself a Christian?

A - I never said what a person can or cannot do. I simply stated what the word means (Christians = anointed ones).

B - A disciple of Christ who is baptized (with holy spirit; the water of life) is a Christian (an anointed one).

Is this another of your Pharasitical rules?

I think you ought to be more careful about casting those stones. Glass houses and all.


I have not told you what you can or cannot do; I have not given you rules, and it is your religion that has gone beyond what is written (which you called Pharisaical). It is your religion telling people that they cannot be 'approved baptized disciples of Christ' for various reasons, such as smoking (as one example).

You cannot watch certain movies, or read certain books, or listen to certain music, or work in certain industries. You cannot have tattoos. You have a code of dress and grooming to be followed. You cannot have a blood transfusion (though you can accept blood fractions). You used to not be able to have organ transplants because that was considered cannibalism, but that was of course wrong, and now organ transplants are approved and even praised. And if a person does decide to get a blood transfusion, it is not a matter between them and God, that person is (the last I read at least) automatically considered to no longer be a JW, and will then be shunned by all.


Sacrifice, instead of mercy.

Rule upon rule.


Why aren't you taking issue with them?



(And PLEASE. Just stop. Because we both know what your religion says about 'true christians' and 'christendom'.)






Peace again to you.
Last edited by tam on Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #1333

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Baptism with holy spirit (the water of life) makes a person Christian....

No following the example of Christ makes a "Christian" . One thing Jesus did was be baptised, so disciples must be baptised. The Baptism means nothing unless we are dedicated, footstep followers of Christ. Where does it say in the bible that baptism makes a person a Christian?
MATTHEW 16:24 - NWT

Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me
As for your expression "baptism with holy spirit" as I said I'm not interested in your interpretation, the bible speaks of being anointed with holy spirit (which we both agree refers to the future rulers) or baptised in the name of the holy spirit.
You have been unable to prove that none of the unanointed potential subjects of the future rulers alive today can be footstep followers of Christ or be considered as Christians. Christians according to the biblical standard not your own made up additions.

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #1334

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: Baptism with holy spirit (the water of life) makes a person Christian....

No following the example of Christ makes them a Christian.

Christ was anointed with holy spirit.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #1335

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: I simply stated what the word means (Christians = anointed ones)

Are you sure about that?
The Greek word Χ�ιστιανός (Christianos), meaning "follower of Christ", comes from Χ�ιστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one", with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians


JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #1336

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1331 by tam]

So lets recap.

#1 You admit there will be unanointed subjects of Christ and his fellow rulers in paradise

#2 We know that these unanointed ones will be approved for their actions towards Christs brothers before he (Christ) returns.

#3 We know Jesus spoke of "other sheep" that he would collect under his leadership after he spoke the words recorded ay John 10:16
"A group of people, living before Christ returns, acting in a way that Jesus approves towards his "brothers: these are the unanointed CHRISTIANS, potential subjects of kingdom rule that will live in paradise



OBJECTIONS

#1 But these potential subjects cannot be Christians because one has to be anointed with holy spirit to be a Christian
  • Nowhere in scripture does it say one has to be anointed with holy spirit to be a Christian. Jesus said one has to be born again to enter the kingdom of the heavens, but nowhere in scripture does it say anointing or being born again is needed to be a Christian.
#2 But all of the first century disciples were indeed born again spirit anointed Christians.
  • That does seem to be the case but Jesus indicated there were others, not of that "fold" that he would later collect together. It is a logical fallacy to assume that if all in a group have a commonality, there can exist nothing outside of that group or "fold"* especially when Jesus exllicitly stated there would be another group of sheep
#3 But doesnt the bible say to all disciples must be anointed with holy spirit when they are baptised?
  • No it does not. The word "anointed" has special spiritual significance as if is a reference to the ancient Hebrew custom of putting oil on the heads of future KINGS. In obelience to Jesus command all disciples of Christ should be baptised in the name of the Father, Son and holy spirit. Anointing is not scripturally the same thing.
# 4 BUT doesnt the very word "Christian" mean "anointed one" ?
  • No, "Christ" means anointed one. Christian, means follower of Christ. Someone that is a dedicated, baptised follower of the anojnted one, namely Christ is a Christian.

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:32 pm, edited 10 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #1337

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 1330 by JehovahsWitness]

As for your expression "baptism with holy spirit" as I said I'm not interested in your interpretation, the bible speaks of being anointed with holy spirit (which we both agree refers to the future rulers) or baptised in the name of the holy spirit.
How is that my expression?

"After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the holy spirit.�



Holy spirit being given at Pentecost was baptism of holy spirit. This is the anointing of holy spirit.



You have been unable to prove that none of the unanointed potential subjects of the future rulers alive today can be footstep followers of Christ or be considered as Christians. Christians according to the biblical standard not your own made up additions.

Christians - according to the bible standard - were all anointed (baptized) with holy spirit.

There is no example or teaching (in the bible) of a Christian who is not anointed (baptized) with holy spirit.



So yes, a Christian is a follower of Christ. And yes, a Christian does belong to Christ. But a Christian is also anointed (baptized) with holy spirit. And there is no example from what is written that shows otherwise.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #1338

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1334 by tam]

Again nobody is saying anointing didnt happen but you are saying that (correct me if Im wrong) there are no unanointed Christians alive on earth today. If thats not what you are claiming what are you on about?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #1339

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1331 by tam]

So lets recap.


You admit there will be unanointed subjects of Christ and his fellow rulers in paradise
I did not 'admit' it (as if I had ever said something else). I acknowledged the truth that people of the nations who were not Christian will also be invited into the Kingdom, as my Lord has taught me.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... 804#731804

We know that these unanointed ones will be approved for their actions towards Christs brothers before he (Christ) returns.
Note that the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) did not know that they had done anything for Christ. It was unknowing. They did such things NATURALLY (showing that the law - love - is upon their hearts). Paul spoke of such ones in Romans 2.

Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?"



When Christ returns, that is what these sheep ask.

We know Jesus spoke of "other sheep" that he wojld collect under his leadership after he spoke the words reccorded ay John 10:35

Of course He had sheep to call other than just those Jews (from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin). And I think you meant John 10:16,

I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #1340

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1336 by tam]

Im not intersted in your interprtation of scripture, you are wrong. The sheep and the goat parable was part of the explanation of the end times, these "sheep" then would be in existence and evident as a group much later than the first century.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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