God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[tam]

Peace to you,

But if there is no hope or even chance of a person ever being refined, corrected, etc (such as in your second scenario with eternal punishment), then there is no point to the discipline of such a person. There is no longer any love in it.

You are right

I think it is self-explanatory - but mankind does come up with some strange ideas about what love is/what love does.

- those condemned are chastised on earth as small judgments against their evil pointing to the final judgement of their banishment to the outer darkness. Only those who can actually repent, those who have NOT sinned the unforgivable sin, are chastised by the painful discipline designed to bring them to full righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, making them heaven ready.

The "outer darkness" is temporary; until those who are cast there are subject to the eternal fire (the second death).


But we agree that discipline is designed to bring a person to righteousness; and those whom God disciplines are being treated as sons. Just as Christ says to His sheep:

Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent. Rev 3:19

Whether they live in such banishment eternally or temporarily means nothing to me... we will find out.

Understood.

But HIS love for us who either love HIM or can learn to love HIM is certainly enough love to have HIM protect us

Indeed!

(In fact, the fire that comes down from heaven and devours 'gog and magog' at the end of the "thousand years", occurs because 'gog and magog' have ridden across the breadth of the earth for battle, and surround the camp of people whom God loves. Rev 20:7-9. But God protects the people He loves.)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 278 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

What is "punishment" in a court judgment setting, after all? It is a judicial court judgment duly carried out, such as the one Rome gave to Jesus, which sentenced him to death.

And carried out that sentence.

Did he really die? Yes, said Jesus: "I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades". Revelation 1:18.

This death is part of human history, but was fully " in God's infinite, eternal view".

God put His own seal on it three days later. Yes, it only needed 3 days, not eternity, to become the ransom it was and is to save us so that we will not be hurt by the Second Death.

Likewise, that is all the time God needs to deal with those who do receive eternal punishment, by administering a death that is irreversible and separates from all that is and ever will be.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 271 by PinSeeker]

Hey let me present it to you this way, Checkpoint. I mean, I feel certain you won't buy it, but here goes anyway:

In this life, God disciplines us. He disciplines everybody, actually, believer or not (at least to some extent and in different ways). And sometimes, He places us under judgment; sometimes it is necessary for God to place judgments upon us rather than blessing. I would suggest to you that this is also love. Love is not always warm and fuzzy, so to speak; sometimes He expresses His love by allowing us to go through heavy trials and tribulation, even great suffering. We believe it's all for our good, don't we (Romans 8:28)? And because of this, we are to count all our trials and tribulations as joy, (James 1:2-4), right? Yes, that's right. Sometimes it's really hard to believe, for sure, but it's true. I would argue this is just as much His love as, well, giving us what we would consider to be really good things, or causing really great things to happen for us.

With that in mind, let's switch to the age to come, eternity. I would argue that, as hard as it is to get into our heads (because it's really impossible to grasp things from God's perspective; His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways not our ways -- Isaiah 55:8-9), that placing people under His judgment for eternity and punishing them in this manner -- even eternally -- is love. Just as much as what He will do for us, glorifying us, placing the wicked under eternal judgment in this place of "outer darkness" is a full manifestation -- to them as well as to us -- of His love. It's just a different manifestation of His love than the one we will experience. It is. Believe it or not. For sure, you can go the "not" route if you want, and I fully expect that to be the case, but I would recommend otherwise.

Much of what you say here regarding God's discipline is applicable and appropriate in this temporary life to us disciples.

But as to those who in the future final Judgment have the "eternal punishment" verdict applied as you describe, I don't buy it in any shape or form, and emphatically take the "not so" route.

Their punishment is punitive and forever, and as such has no remedial "discipline" aspect or function whatsoever.

The Lord bless and keep you.

[PinSeeker]

Checkpoint wrote:

We will either be given eternal life, or lose temporary life by being put back to sleep, this last time, permanently, in eternal death, which is The Second Death.

Pinseeker responded:

Nope. "Lose temporary life"? That doesn't even make sense. I guess that's a sneaky way of saying those on Jesus's left cease to exist, and that's surely not the case.

It makes sense when Jesus says it..

Luke 9:

24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?

And you think He was talking about the first death there? Or the second? Surely not; neither is the case.

It is but it isn't. It isn't but it is.

LOL! I'm at a loss, here...

It makes sense and is relevant to our discussion.

Okay, I'll bite. How so?

[PinSeeker]

You twist and contort the simple and logical words of God!... Your claims do not logically equate with the good news as proclaimed by the Gospel.

In your opinion. Yeah, I hear you loud and clear, many times now. We can agree to disagree, I'm sure.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[Eloi]

PinSeeker, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of this forum. It is not to sermon, or tell people that you think different ... but to prove why the way you think is the right one and others think wrong.

[PinSeeker]

The differences we have in this ongoing debate, I suggest, stem from our fundamentally different starting points, one in Genesis 1 and the other in Genesis 2. These inform us and color how we read and interpret later Scriptures such as those you summarised. Hence, for example, your explanation of "separation" outlined here, differs markedly from what we would say.

All I would say to this is... well, two things, and in this order:

1. All of what I say to you, Checkpoint -- and everyone else here as well -- is prefaced with the utmost due respect.

2. What you say here, from where I stand, is in my view pure and unadulterated rationalization. Genesis 2 is no more -- and no less -- important than Genesis 1.

What passages did you have in mind from Ezekiel and Isaiah?

Isaiah we've talked about. You pointed out that one, but there are others.

As for Ezekiel, the latter part of chapter 36 and the whole of chapter 37, specifically. What is said here is specifically about believers, those who are of God's Israel. The Elect. The redeemed. Those for whom He is their God and thus are His people. In the context of the passage, even prior to regeneration, they are obviously alive physically and existent and merely -- metaphorically speaking -- dry bones. But they are given -- again, metaphorically speaking -- sinews, flesh, skin, breath, and a heart that is no longer stone. They are given life, and they come to know that He is the LORD.

However, the clear implication of this is what will not happen for -- and what will happen to -- unbelievers. Even though they are very clearly physically alive and existent, both temporally and in eternity, they will remain dead. And regarding eternity, they will be separated completely from God's sanctuary, the New Heaven and New Earth and its glorified occupants forevermore.

I don't love what will happen to/for unbelievers in any way. Neither does God, obviously, we know He does not desire such a fate for anyone, but rather desires that all would be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). But still, the wages of sin is death, and God did, according to His own right and for His own glory, make out of the same lump of clay one vessel (many vessels) for honorable use and another (many others) for dishonorable use (Romans 9). Such are the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God, the unsearchable nature of His judgments and the inscrutable nature of His ways (Romans 11).

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of this forum. It is not to sermon, or tell people that you think different ... but to prove why the way you think is the right one and others think wrong.

Yes, I understand very well, Eloi. Thank you anyway. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Much of what you say here regarding God's discipline is applicable and appropriate in this temporary life to us disciples.

Yes, I agree with you, but that's just not the whole story. It's not.

What is "punishment" in a court judgment setting, after all? It is a judicial court judgment duly carried out, such as the one Rome gave to Jesus, which sentenced him to death... Did he really die? Yes, said Jesus: "I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades". Revelation 1:18.

I'll address this briefly, with a question. Is it your opinion that Jesus became non-existent for any length of time? Is that what you're understanding from this verse? Surely not, Checkpoint. Surely not.

But as to those who in the future final Judgment have the "eternal punishment" verdict applied as you describe, I don't buy it in any shape or form, and emphatically take the "not so" route. Their punishment is punitive and forever, and as such has no remedial "discipline" aspect or function whatsoever.

Yes, I understand your position/opinion very well, Checkpoint. But as I have said many times previous to this one, your "buying it" is not a requirement of mine, as far as I am concerned. Or God's, I think, from a salvation standpoint.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

The explanations you provided in our earlier conversation (which you have not replied TO), were untrue.

In your opinion. I understand. I most certainly did reply, just not to your satisfaction. This I understand also.

It is not just my opinion that the things you stated proved to be untrue.

Tammy, as with Checkpoint, I mean this with the utmost respect, but here, you're backing up your opinion with... your opinion.

As respectfully as I can possibly say, it is in fact your opinion that what you and others have said here with regard to Scripture or otherwise has proved what I have said about Scripture untrue. I can easily claim otherwise -- and do -- and you can argue in exactly the same way -- and correctly -- that that is my opinion. It seems we should both be able to accept that. I do. Grace and peace to you.